puke spot in 1/3 live game

[notthebandit]

A messy messy hand.

Villain 1 is a whale. Capable of getting ool but will usually play made hands extremely face up. Sitting with 1k.

Villain 2 is a good player but has a real gambling attitude inbetween playing like a boss. Playing 800.

Im playing 500. My image is nitty. Any moves I've made haven't been seen and ive done what I can to build a nitty image I can continue to abuse.

We are 7 handed and open plus 1 to 15 (this is standard open size in this game haha) with  a10ss

Fish flats. villain 2 calls from bb.

Flop comes      .

Villain 2 checks.

We bet 31 and both snap call.

Both players would raise me with better than 1 pair
Turn comes 

Villain 2 bets out 50.... looks like a hit sd.

I make it 120. Fish snaps.

Villain dwell calls.

River   

Villain 2 check. We dwell check.

Fish snap jams.

Villain 2 sits for a few mins calls clock on himself and sigh folds.

Obvs a small flush. He folds straight on turn and never folds a boat to fish.

We?

[theprawnidentity]

call

[notthebandit]

Sorry what I ment to say is what are our reasons for calling or folding.

Im intetested to know if im having the same thought process otr.

[Derbylad]

You've already stated that villain1 is unlikely to play OOL (while capable) and would likely raise the flop with 78/or a set?
Villain 2 seems like he's played the hand super standard, and is more then likely on a SD with a nut draw river, i.e. has the  in his hand, with a made straight draw as you say on the river.

Why if Villain 1 is displayed as an absolute whale would we not be calling vs his range? He's turning so many hands into a bluff on the river, and based on your own evaluations the only set hand he can have is 88, but even then he's likely to raise the flop with an overpair and gutshot? The same principles for 78o/s...

Sigh Call.. with the nut flush.

[theprawnidentity]

Well if he flopped a set / two pair on that board I would expect him to want to play it quickly, especially as there is a ton of draws out there.  I would expect to see T9 9x or a smaller flush quite often.

Maybe not as fast a call as I first thought though.

[Derbylad]

Not a fan of the pre-flop or turn bet sizings either.... just because everyone else is 5x'ing doesn't mean we have to and we're losing so many BB's to a 3B in these spots.

[notthebandit]

Bb lead turn....

Because of my image and raising turn fish is never jamming a hand he perceives as a bluff against me because he knows I have a hand.

[SuuPRlim]

dont mind pre-flop, I always 4x in deep stacked live games providing they arent mental aggro.

Bigger OTF imo, if we're raising the turn (which we should) then much much bigger, like at least £200 imo. We want him to be really pot-stuck on the river and feel obligated to call it off.

Why do we check the river? seems like the clearest value-bet ever? As played there is £500 in there and we have £330 back? I think i'd just go all in, or maybe bet £200 but id obv call the last £130 off if someone ships even thought youre beat then near on everytime but you'll be getting 11-1 and you'll have to make them show you it imo.

As played now, IDK lol, chk/calling this river seems a little meh cos people will bluff literally never but since we have checked I dont know if chk/folded is better or worse than chk/calling, can't be much in it - i'd prolly call cos it's close and there's a bunch of money in there.

[rfgqqabc]

Call, only behind to 78/straight flush, wouldnt expect any fish to check behind a house. Dont see why you or how you can c/f in this spot. If i check I am calling, and I'm betting tbh.

Pre is fine, i would be opening tightish to a very big size (the max i can get away with) this deep in position vs a deepstacked weak opponent.

Honeybadger made a post about nonstandard betsizing, and preflop here is a spot where we can open big for value, we just need to find our opponents inflection point to call. You will find this fairly easy and be able to adjust. For example, in my local game depending on lineup and stacksizes I could quite easily be opening to 5-20 as an open raise at £1/2, I even open to £4 when the game is very shorthanded and the blinds are poor.

I had a small ahah moment in a live £.5/1 game when i was slightly tilted. I opened to £12 utg with AJo and got 9 callers. Don't be afraid to experiment here, preflop is an extremely important street and one we play the most so making good decisions here is important.

We don't miss out when we find out the target folds to an open of £20 but calls £18 everytime instead of our usual 3-4bb open. This becomes important especially when we can extrapolate the extra post, ie increasing the pot early by a small % can make a vast difference to later on. If we go hu in a £40 pot and 1/2 pot every street we put in £140 total (20+40+80)/ When its £24 we go 12/24/48 putting in £84. £16 pre equals 56 one a later street. Imagine now when we go for pot on every street with AK on the K72r on vs the fish

This is a bit of a tangent but should be useful.

[notthebandit]

Thanks for the input guys. I agree checking river is missing value most
Of the time but the action on all streets confused me.

Ever been in a spot where you just think wtf is going on??

Also agree turn should be bigger.  Hand looks weaker at 200 and anything
That calls 120 is calling 200.

I called. Thinking the only hand he can have is 78. Gg us....

[rfgqqabc]

Thanks for the input guys. I agree checking river is missing value most
Of the time but the action on all streets confused me.

Ever been in a spot where you just think wtf is going on??

Also agree turn should be bigger.  Hand looks weaker at 200 and anything
That calls 120 is calling 200.

I called. Thinking the only hand he can have is 78. Gg us....

If he just has 78 fold

WTF spots happen a lot (less and less over time) in live games because people can do very strange and crazy things, combined with individual live factors and dynamic. I had loads recently when there was an aces cracked promotion which meant all the regs decided to limp/raise AA if the game was small because there was a 1/5 chance of winning 3.3-4k if your hand got cracked.

[notthebandit]

''Generic comment about if I got 4k every time I had aces cracked"

Off on a tangent a hand ten minutes later sums up this game.

In a limped pot to the straddle pre... 4qj flop.

Player bets and gets called to the river by both.

Board is 4qj67. 44 bets 80 on river and a stoned off his nut nit raises 200?!?

44 sigh calls and gets shown k10 'I have a straight' 

[zerofive]

Think Dave (suuprlim) is spot on as always.

Am curious as to why we check the river tho.

[AlexMartin]

was this at the vic last night?

[notthebandit]

I think its a bad check out of confusion.

No alex but I did consider paying for a hooker just to fall asleep with haha