i got c/call donked. mug

[pleno1]

v v v rarely has a hand liek kq ott.

[youthnkzR]

v v v rarely has a hand liek kq ott.

I occasionally take a line like this vs people I view as maniacs

[TL900]

v v v rarely has a hand liek kq ott.

even if he has a flush draw (biggest part of his range imo) hes sticking it in your eye to a raise, well I know I am anyway

[SuuPRlim]

I think donk/calling the NFD would be pretty bad unless speficially or as its so fucking easy to play against Pleno gets the slightest inkling your capable of it QJ now the easiest turn raise/call ever. However in a vacuum vs pleno's image i might have some merit, although most lunatics (even bad lunatics) have the common sense to realise that everyone else knows how mental they are and to "go with" more hands + there natural movement towards lunacy will make them want to raise/go with more hands anyway.

If the oppo in this hand has decided to donk QT to call a raise and chk/call the river but to donk/chk fold the river then I actually think that line is quite sharky but i seriously doubt he's actually doing that here.

it's raise/chk river for me although I think folding THIS hand specifically is prolly best although I would NEVER fold AJ here I dont think.

How much different is JT and AJ here? In the opinion of the esteemed posters before me.

[rfgqqabc]

I think donk/calling the NFD would be pretty bad unless speficially or as its so fucking easy to play against Pleno gets the slightest inkling your capable of it QJ now the easiest turn raise/call ever. However in a vacuum vs pleno's image i might have some merit, although most lunatics (even bad lunatics) have the common sense to realise that everyone else knows how mental they are and to "go with" more hands + there natural movement towards lunacy will make them want to raise/go with more hands anyway.

If the oppo in this hand has decided to donk QT to call a raise and chk/call the river but to donk/chk fold the river then I actually think that line is quite sharky but i seriously doubt he's actually doing that here.

it's raise/chk river for me although I think folding THIS hand specifically is prolly best although I would NEVER fold AJ here I dont think.

How much different is JT and AJ here? In the opinion of the esteemed posters before me.

AJ is worse surely 3 outs to a queen compared to 4 with the 9. Plus JT  is a lot prettier and has same outs vs 99 and the rest.

[EvilPie]

I think donk/calling the NFD would be pretty bad unless speficially or as its so fucking easy to play against Pleno gets the slightest inkling your capable of it QJ now the easiest turn raise/call ever. However in a vacuum vs pleno's image i might have some merit, although most lunatics (even bad lunatics) have the common sense to realise that everyone else knows how mental they are and to "go with" more hands + there natural movement towards lunacy will make them want to raise/go with more hands anyway.

If the oppo in this hand has decided to donk QT to call a raise and chk/call the river but to donk/chk fold the river then I actually think that line is quite sharky but i seriously doubt he's actually doing that here.

it's raise/chk river for me although I think folding THIS hand specifically is prolly best although I would NEVER fold AJ here I dont think.

How much different is JT and AJ here? In the opinion of the esteemed posters before me.

AJ is worse surely 3 outs to a queen compared to 4 with the 9. Plus JT  is a lot prettier and has same outs vs 99 and the rest.

It's not just outs though is it. AJ might actually be winning and not need outs.

If JT doesn't hit you have no choice but to bluff or give up. AJ might have some showdown value if we pussy out and don't want to continue this kamikaze line.

[PathFinder]

It's not about his outs to possibly make the best hand, we are planning to take this pot away from Villian either on river or turn (I prefer river personally) what AJ allows us to do over J10 is that we have more showdown vs Villian donking out K high but showdown surely isn't where we won't to go? (I would like to hear daves opinion on why You would prefer ace high to jack high if we are avoiding showdown)

In regards to people wanting to fold to the donk turn bet all you are doing is taking a lower variance line, which is fine if that's your playing style or you feel Villian has a stronger range than he seems to be representing. But if you prefer lower variance then you may just fold J10 pre flop to avoid this scenario. I don't think there's any need to be overly critical of people that wish to take this line, this is why Poker is an enjoyable game, pitting your wits against various styles.

However what you must realise is we are playing our range not our hand. The flop is dryer than Ghandi's flip flop so Villian is competent enough to realise that we cbet 100% on this board. He also knows we will most likely cbet all turns also so he should check his value range on turn. The fact that he donks makes it easier for us to convince him that we have a strong range rather than us 3 barrelling which could make us too polorised sometimes.

I would be interested to know if the people that would fold the turn would cbet again if Villian checked??

[MANTIS01]

It's not about his outs to possibly make the best hand, we are planning to take this pot away from Villian either on river or turn (I prefer river personally) what AJ allows us to do over J10 is that we have more showdown vs Villian donking out K high but showdown surely isn't where we won't to go? (I would like to hear daves opinion on why You would prefer ace high to jack high if we are avoiding showdown)

In regards to people wanting to fold to the donk turn bet all you are doing is taking a lower variance line, which is fine if that's your playing style or you feel Villian has a stronger range than he seems to be representing. But if you prefer lower variance then you may just fold J10 pre flop to avoid this scenario. I don't think there's any need to be overly critical of people that wish to take this line, this is why Poker is an enjoyable game, pitting your wits against various styles.

However what you must realise is we are playing our range not our hand. The flop is dryer than Ghandi's flip flop so Villian is competent enough to realise that we cbet 100% on this board. He also knows we will most likely cbet all turns also so he should check his value range on turn. The fact that he donks makes it easier for us to convince him that we have a strong range rather than us 3 barrelling which could make us too polorised sometimes.

I would be interested to know if the people that would fold the turn would cbet again if Villian checked??

If my image was joke joke joke insane bad I would deffo question the merit of taking the high variance option and as such would fold pre. I understand the way you break it down but think you are looking at the hand in a vaccuum. We have ok chips here and I would want to assess factors like other stacks at the table, how the table is playing, our current position in the comp etc before understanding the need to risk jamming J high from an insane bad image.

Overall it's almost certain villain has better equity in the hand than we do and we don't rightly know what his bet means and we have J high. I also wonder what is the merit of our cbet if villain knows we cbet 100%? It's not a good vbet or a good bluff.

[PathFinder]

We cbet the flop as it makes it easier to build our range through the streets. If we check flop it's going to be difficult to have our value hands in our range eg AA KK AQ KQ JQ Q10 JJ 1010 etc etc

[pleno1]

It's not about his outs to possibly make the best hand, we are planning to take this pot away from Villian either on river or turn (I prefer river personally) what AJ allows us to do over J10 is that we have more showdown vs Villian donking out K high but showdown surely isn't where we won't to go? (I would like to hear daves opinion on why You would prefer ace high to jack high if we are avoiding showdown)

In regards to people wanting to fold to the donk turn bet all you are doing is taking a lower variance line, which is fine if that's your playing style or you feel Villian has a stronger range than he seems to be representing. But if you prefer lower variance then you may just fold J10 pre flop to avoid this scenario. I don't think there's any need to be overly critical of people that wish to take this line, this is why Poker is an enjoyable game, pitting your wits against various styles.

However what you must realise is we are playing our range not our hand. The flop is dryer than Ghandi's flip flop so Villian is competent enough to realise that we cbet 100% on this board. He also knows we will most likely cbet all turns also so he should check his value range on turn. The fact that he donks makes it easier for us to convince him that we have a strong range rather than us 3 barrelling which could make us too polorised sometimes.

I would be interested to know if the people that would fold the turn would cbet again if Villian checked??

If my image was joke joke joke insane bad I would deffo question the merit of taking the high variance option and as such would fold pre. I understand the way you break it down but think you are looking at the hand in a vaccuum. We have ok chips here and I would want to assess factors like other stacks at the table, how the table is playing, our current position in the comp etc before understanding the need to risk jamming J high from an insane bad image.

Overall it's almost certain villain has better equity in the hand than we do and we don't rightly know what his bet means and we have J high. I also wonder what is the merit of our cbet if villain knows we cbet 100%? It's not a good vbet or a good bluff.

good luck villain being able to successfully counter us cbetting with a super high frequency when calling oop without initiative on q44r, he tried possibly the best line, but unfortunately for him, he ran into a stubborn man who has 2 buttons, neither of them beginning in f.

[dreenie]

but unfortunately for him, he ran into a stubborn man who has 2 buttons, neither of them beginning in f.

 

[SuuPRlim]

It's not about his outs to possibly make the best hand, we are planning to take this pot away from Villian either on river or turn (I prefer river personally) what AJ allows us to do over J10 is that we have more showdown vs Villian donking out K high but showdown surely isn't where we won't to go? (I would like to hear daves opinion on why You would prefer ace high to jack high if we are avoiding showdown)

In regards to people wanting to fold to the donk turn bet all you are doing is taking a lower variance line, which is fine if that's your playing style or you feel Villian has a stronger range than he seems to be representing. But if you prefer lower variance then you may just fold J10 pre flop to avoid this scenario. I don't think there's any need to be overly critical of people that wish to take this line, this is why Poker is an enjoyable game, pitting your wits against various styles.

However what you must realise is we are playing our range not our hand. The flop is dryer than Ghandi's flip flop so Villian is competent enough to realise that we cbet 100% on this board. He also knows we will most likely cbet all turns also so he should check his value range on turn. The fact that he donks makes it easier for us to convince him that we have a strong range rather than us 3 barrelling which could make us too polorised sometimes.

I would be interested to know if the people that would fold the turn would cbet again if Villian checked??

I get that we're playing our range, not our hand, but we have to remember that what our cards are really is one of the most relevant things in any hand.

The reason I want AJ, not JT here is because if we raise the turn and he calls I think his range is specifically made up of strong-strongish turn draws and fucnky value lines, I think he wont have taken this flop/turn line for value to fold on most rivers (maybe some, hard to know which) so we're now facing a range of draws which have missed (I think we have to give up on clubs almost always) and funky value lines which have tried to induce us. In my last post I was thinking does JT NEED to bluff vs that range? I think it prolly DOES, whereas I'm pretty confident AJ has plenty equity against the non-value stuff in his turn range to showdown, if we work with the assumption anything he's taken this line for value with till this point wont be folding.

Also an ACE is forsure a slam dunk VB on the end whereas a J or a T might not be.

The maths of these types of moves gets so much easier on you with just a little bit of equity , for example raising JT here and then losing on a brick to is really fkn bad. This is why saying its about our range not our hand is abso correct, but our hand is really really relevant.

[PathFinder]

That's why I believe flatting turn and betting river is better than re-raising turn just incase he does have a hand like or any Ace high flush draw. I appreciate these are small margins but it sometimes can come to this. If your saying that an ace river is a slam dunk value bet (which obviously is) then so are the four 9's left in the deck if we have j 10. So as long as we are taking the line of not folding turn I still prefer J 10.

PS - appreciate your response Dave

[SuuPRlim]

That's why I believe flatting turn and betting river is better than re-raising turn just incase he does have a hand like or any Ace high flush draw. I appreciate these are small margins but it sometimes can come to this. If your saying that an ace river is a slam dunk value bet (which obviously is) then so are the four 9's left in the deck if we have j 10. So as long as we are taking the line of not folding turn I still prefer J 10.

PS - appreciate your response Dave

NPs, interesting discussion really.

I get why flatting the turn is better in theory as we dont really have a vaue range that raises the turn, problem is, in a vacuum how often he our oppo going to give up OTR, and shipping over his river bet has to be for ALL-IN so we've defo picked the most expensive bluff line, with zero equity, therefore we have to be very sure that we are getting the folds we need as there is no reprise from the maths. I don't have a problem with big 0equity bluffs, and tbh people prolly dont do them enough but you gotta be very confident it's the right play cos the line between this and pure spew is pretty thin.

Calling with JT and folding to a river bet (and blufing when checked to) is a very exploitative play, and we'll be doing this because we think our opponent doesn't bluff the river with a high enough frequency (but there's no way to know if this is the case or not) just like calling and jamming over a river bet will be exploiting the fact he bluffs with too high a frequency (which again we don't know)

Basically i feel like there is too much guesswork in this spot to take an exploitative float line, but I think there IS quite a bit of vacuum merit in just raising here, purely because he doesn't rep much, we don't rep much either but we're not repping much for a bigger bet and leveraging him to play for his stack giving him the much more expensive option to defend against us.

We're never getting him off a Queen, if he has one. So really we're just trying to attack the fact he has a pretty thin value range considering most of his flop c/c range are bluff-catchers. And the cheapest way to do it is undoubtedly to raise here imo.