Thatcher dead?

[millidonk]

I clicked that to see the full-size image

<3

[Acidmouse]

I brought up the Blair years because for me his legacy will be the Iraq war. I can’t figure out why people are generally so relaxed towards his tenure compared to Thatcher’s, I genuinely can’t. There’s no doubt lots of innocent people were bombed to death on his watch. And it turns out the evidence he presented to parliament justifying it was wrong. I mean as far as mistakes go that’s quite a howler.

Overall I despise war (although I do believe in a strong defence policy) so I think hmm flying over to another part of the world as the aggressor and bombing people for no reason, especially without UN clearance, is a HUGE policy error. A further cost of this policy was our own innocent people getting bombed to death going about their daily business on the tube. Yet people seem to hate Thatcher much more than Blair and are generally quite relaxed about his error. Personally I feel a lot of compassion for those people, sure some aren’t British and they live far away but they got wrongly bombed to death on Blair’s watch. If we want to judge our leaders on their policy errors why isn’t he hated like Thatcher? Is it because of his Saddam was a bogeyman anyway spin?

Nah, I figure it’s because we live in a me me me society. That is prob the reason people hate Thatcher more than Blair. The people who hate Thatcher lost their jobs and it affected their families. They weren’t bombed out the sky when they were sitting down for dinner like, but they lost their livelihoods, so fuck Thatcher. Think it’s now grown into some kinda tribal thing. But any neutral from another country would say Blair’s policy error and the consequences beat all Maggie’s combined. Even so, I don't hate Blair at all.

Please can I ask the mod(s) to let me know if this is known as “trolling” via pm rather than running me down publically?

Blair is worse imo, i think most socialists would dislike him too.

Thatcher sold her soul to trade arms across the globe to all sorts of rogues. Blair illegally went into war, just as bad, not much difference.

Everyone I know personally that disliked Thatcher were not directly effected by some of the more obvious policies, they just thought it was unjust and morally wrong. Same as what Blair did really.

I just wish Smith had not died, such a man of principle to lead the labour party in the 90s, they might not have had to sell their souls to get into power.

[Doobs]

Brilliant speeches from Cameron and Miliband there

Especially Miliband.

Well worth catching if you missed them

Rare public appearence by his brother?

[The Camel]

I don't know why Thatcher's admirers are at all bothered by people celebrating her death.

I suspect she would be quite amused if she knew.

She tore the country apart and it's inevitable such a divisive figure will be remembered in completely different ways by those who prospered under her regime and those who suffered.

Live and let live imo

[Jon MW]

I don't know why Thatcher's admirers are at all bothered by people celebrating her death.

I suspect she would be quite amused if she knew.

...

I think it's in poor taste but I agree, I saw something today from someone who mentioned last year that there were Thatcher death party packs available at the TUC annual conference - apparently that made her pretty happy; she said something along the lines of, if people still have opinions that strong 20 years after she left office it means she had 'done something' in politics rather than just 'being someone' in politics.

[Ironside]

Keith I am no thatcher lover but by no means a thatcher hater despite my age and nationality, my problem is people wishing and or celebrating the death of another human, this is coming from a man who still considers himself a soldier and used to argue in favour of the death penalty. We all have one life there is no dress rehearsal, no matter what Mrs t did she did it at time believing it too be in the best interest of the people and the country, I don't think she intended for the hardships that occurred after some of her policys were implemented .

[redarmi]

Can I be banned from this thread please?

I tried self-excluding but in a triumph of hope over experience I keep coming back when there's a new post to look for some reasoned debate.

fwiw - I have mixed feelings about the legacy of those 11 years.

Teesside was once a major manufacturing centre but that had all gone by the time I got here in 1987 and the wasteland on the south bank of the Tees as it flowed past Stockton was a very clear indication of the death of that industry.
Today it is full of offices, homes, University buildings and more. The Tees Barrage and an International Standard white-water facility add to the sense that it has been improved and Mrs Thatcher took much of the credit for the establishment of the Teesside Development Corporation that was responsible for that 'improvement'.
My recollection is that Michael Heseltine had a fair hand in that too, but...

Is it improved? Aesthetically without a doubt. But the once world-leading shipbuilders and fabricators that used to occupy that space probably contributed more to the Nation's Wealth than the current crop of call centres and claims handlers.
Why did those manufacturing industries fail?
one or more of these reasons I'd say
 
Because they didn't modernise when they should have,
because the Unions strangled the life out of them
because the strong pound made their products too expensive on world markets

Which of those you choose may define your view of the Thatcher years

Very interesting post David.  You arrived in Teeside 2 years before I left (incidentally I can now allow my irrational hatred of you for not supporting the Boro go now I know you werent born there ;-).  I go back there often but what i see there doesn't really feel like improvement to me, for sure there is a lot of development but it all feels like the government spending to try and prop up the community that a previous government destroyed and it also feels to me that the current cuts to public spending will very likely destroy the new industries as surely as it did the old one.  Middlesbrough, in particular and Teeside in general were small sleepy hamlets before industrialisation and it seems to me to be somewhat a case of throwing good money after bad to pretend that an industrial community like that can just turn into a community of goverment call centres overnight.  For me the crux of the problem is the ideology associated with it.  If you believe in the free market as Thatcherites did vehemently and remove subsidies and union powers to allow the market to find a level become competitive and then, if it isn't die, then when everyone in those industries loses their job you don't then replce that with goverment spending, tax incentives etc.  You should then let that area also find its level in the market and ,frankly, maybe Teeside (that is etched through me like Blackpool rock) doesn't have much to offer. Of course if you believe the opposite then the initial industries should have been supported.

[The Camel]

Keith I am no thatcher lover but by no means a thatcher hater despite my age and nationality, my problem is people wishing and or celebrating the death of another human, this is coming from a man who still considers himself a soldier and used to argue in favour of the death penalty. We all have one life there is no dress rehearsal, no matter what Mrs t did she did it at time believing it too be in the best interest of the people and the country, I don't think she intended for the hardships that occurred after some of her policys were implemented .

Celebrating in front of family or people who knew her would be unacceptable imo.

But to everyone else she was just a cartoon figure, one you either admired or hated. Not many shades of grey.

Every time enemies saw her on tv they were reminded of the considerable pain she put them through, completely understandable they want to celebrate drawing a line under a very bad period in their life.

[redarmi]

I brought up the Blair years because for me his legacy will be the Iraq war. I can’t figure out why people are generally so relaxed towards his tenure compared to Thatcher’s, I genuinely can’t. There’s no doubt lots of innocent people were bombed to death on his watch. And it turns out the evidence he presented to parliament justifying it was wrong. I mean as far as mistakes go that’s quite a howler.

Literally everywhere Blair goes now there are demonstrators demanding his arrest for war crimes.  Lot of people are not exactly relaxed about him.

[MintTrav]

The biggest trauma of this whole episode for me is the discovery that Tighty is an unashamed Thatcherite. I know he has worked in the city and all that, but I never would have suspected.

[TightEnd]

The biggest trauma of this whole episode for me is the discovery that Tighty is an unashamed Thatcherite. I know he has worked in the city and all that, but I never would have suspected.

I'm not especially. Socially quite liberal, economically a bit right of centre. Would be known as a "wet".

[the sicilian]

Hate the British mentality that if you work hard make something of yourself make a good few quid and provide yourself with a more than comfortable life your regarded as some kind of anti christ.... Now if your poor live in a shit hole and whine your whole life how hard done by you are your some kind of rebel hero ffs...

[Rod Paradise]

Hate the British mentality that if you work hard make something of yourself make a good few quid and provide yourself with a more than comfortable life your regarded as some kind of anti christ.... Now if your poor live in a shit hole and whine your whole life how hard done by you are your some kind of rebel hero ffs...

Lazy generalisation that though.

Where I live was a great area, then the pits were shut. Some people got jobs elsewhere & moved, but there were a lot of people unemployed all over. The kids were encouraged to study hard & leave (which I did) - some of the empty houses were filled with the people that the councils in big cities didn't want (people wanted and could afford the council houses in the desirable areas, tenants who couldn't were only offered the towns with a surplus of houses), the school got worse, kids started to be sent to the 'better' school in the farming area down the valley. The businessmen who'd worked so hard to build their local businesses were left with dwindling customers with less money. As with anywhere some were lazy, some worked, some worked really hard. But with little money around the safety net for those of prosperous upbringing working hard in good areas, it doesn't take much of a mistake or bad luck to put people back in trouble. I've found few places less accepting of dole scrounging, but with more acceptance that sometimes people get screwed and worn down, that's cause we've all seen it. There's not a hatred for success, Tom Farmer's from not far away, he's now stinking rich. Still takes part in local life, has done some great things to help his local area. He's greatly respected.

Unfortunately that is what happened to villages all over. New Cumnock nearby was recently voted the worst town in Scotland. They had a population of 9,000 & a school roll of about 900 in 1981. There's now 2,000 people and 200 kids in the school. How doea an economy survive that? Most employed people commute, but petrol's more expensive cause we're 'rural' - even then the petrol stations have almost all closed - if you don't fill up in the one that's left you've 30 miles to go to get the next one.

People believe the lazy people/wasters rubbish, like people want to struggle through life, or bring up their kids with little prospects. Few of those that do know what it is like to live in a town like this, and few seem capable of putting themselves in the other guy's shoes enough to comprehend it.

[redarmi]

Hate the British mentality that if you work hard make something of yourself make a good few quid and provide yourself with a more than comfortable life your regarded as some kind of anti christ.... Now if your poor live in a shit hole and whine your whole life how hard done by you are your some kind of rebel hero ffs...

The problem with this though is that working hard and doing well for yourself aren't neccesarily as highly correlated as people think.  There are a whole host of other elements that come into play.  If you lived in Durham or South Yorkshire and were a miner in 1987 when your pit closed it doesn't matter how hard a worker you were you were simply not going to do as well as someone with the same work ethic that was born and lived in St Albans or somewhere.  Even if you had the brains, drive and skillset to start your own business all of your customers could, likely, not afford to buy in your shop, or get your new windows fitted or whatever.  Of course you could move but that isn't an economic and/or emotional reality for some families.  Of course life is like poker in that most people massively underestimate the role of luck when everything goes well and overestimate it when everything goes wrong.  If you lived in the Midlands or the South, worked in financial services, lived in a council house you could afford to buy etc etc during the Thatcher years you ran good.  If you were a skilled blue collar worker, lived in the North, Scotland or Wales and were a waiting list for a council house you ran bad.  

[Woodsey]

Hate the British mentality that if you work hard make something of yourself make a good few quid and provide yourself with a more than comfortable life your regarded as some kind of anti christ.... Now if your poor live in a shit hole and whine your whole life how hard done by you are your some kind of rebel hero ffs...

The problem with this though is that working hard and doing well for yourself aren't neccesarily as highly correlated as people think.  There are a whole host of other elements that come into play.  If you lived in Durham or South Yorkshire and were a miner in 1987 when your pit closed it doesn't matter how hard a worker you were you were simply not going to do as well as someone with the same work ethic that was born and lived in St Albans or somewhere.  Even if you had the brains, drive and skillset to start your own business all of your customers could, likely, not afford to buy in your shop, or get your new windows fitted or whatever.  Of course you could move but that isn't an economic and/or emotional reality for some families.  Of course life is like poker in that most people massively underestimate the role of luck when everything goes well and overestimate it when everything goes wrong.  If you lived in the Midlands or the South, worked in financial services, lived in a council house you could afford to buy etc etc during the Thatcher years you ran good.  If you were a skilled blue collar worker, lived in the North, Scotland or Wales and were a waiting list for a council house you ran bad.  

The vast majority of people can improve themselves considerably if they can really be arsed though.