two live cash spots

[jgcblack]

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1
vs a Tight competent player, don't have a lot of history as we generally avoid each other at the table

£1/1
He opens UTG playing 500+ (we cover), there are 3 peels behind and we find  in SB.  He is on the tighter side and we see no value in 3bt pre.

call

FLOP
    

He cbets £12 (never air) and three folds to us, we call, BB folds.

TURN
 

We check with the intention of check raising and check raising most brick rivers, hearts and A/3's.

He obliges with a bet of £27, we take a little time and make it £65.
(a little bit of 'leveling' but we've never done this to this particular villain in any hand, ever.  I know we're never light here, but think he will assume its just some JBspew and peel/ peel most decent Ax and Kx as we rep so little - obv hearts are a bonus)

RIVER
 

Close to the worst card in the desk imo... the main 'hand' we were beating ott that we're still going to get value from was AQ, obv his value combos are reduced with a K and Q on the board, but when he never barrells the turn with air, its tough to be ahead here.

We check with the intention of re-evaluating on certain bet sizings and he tries something I know he's experimenting with tonight and bets £1.

WWYDAW???




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2

We are playing pretty well postflop and not getting played back at/ attacked/ punished for our loser than should be preflop action.

Open to £7 UTG+1, (two very splashy weak players in the blinds, weak button and co/hj competent but not battling).

We get a flat behind from player X
(a competent well know dtd regular who i know can hand read and can be aggressive when needed but doesn't needlessly wave his penis)

Another two calls from the blinds (perfect) and we see a

FLOP POT- £30~
 

check, check, we bet £16, call, fold, fold.

TURN
   (or similar mega brick)

We expect player x to have a certain % of floats/ weak made hands/ sdv type hands and expect him to be able to bet two streets when check called and checked to.

We check and he bets £26, we take a little while and call...
(could be value or floats but our hand is too strong considering the board texture and competency of the villain imo)


RIVER
 

we check and he takes a little while before flicking in 3x £25 chips and a single £1 for a £76 river bet...
at this point we haven't seen him value bet this big at any stage in any hand, i would expect £45-55 from KJ type hands.. and clearly from the runout there is very little he can have that wants to put a big bet in for value considering my line of cbet, cc, c.

I take a few minutes and then realize from the board texture otf that he should have so many spades/ straights/ combo draws and clearly has to bluff them otr vs my 'capped range' (do I really check JJ ott?).  He can hand read and probably sees me as having at best AA, but most likely QJ-AJ/ QQ type hands.

I expect him to be good enough to bluff here to make me fold those some %, but also expect to see something turned into a bluff some %.


What do we think?



(pretty tired so any details missed just say and ill add them in the morning...)

[SuuPRlim]

Hand #1.

Couple of assumptions don't add up, firstly you say he never c-bets air OTF, then you say you're planning on c/r turn c/r river but you expect him to put you on JB spew and call/call his Ax Kx hands cos you repping a very polarized range. If your initial assumption is correct that his c-bet is never "air" then c/r the flop, bet turn and river. Riase to £40 otf, £70 OTT and £150 otr and imo THAT's the best way to get the most money in here (smaller bets if you need to) trying a really funky c/r c/r line to try and get his whole stack in here is just a lil greedy/fancy and will cost you money vs his potential hero calls imo.

As played, getting to the river defo just bet for value, and fold if he raises, he literally has zero bluffs in his range by the river and nearly his entire range is bluff catching so unless he's sick enough to ship AJ/AT as a bluff here (people never are btw) then it's just a really easy b/f - chk/call isolates you against his strongest hands, allows his bluff catchers to cheaply show down and with your perception of his flop rangee induces no bluffs at all - you might provoke a thin value bet but any hand that will bet thinly for value here is way more likely to call a rivver bet that bet itself.

As played just call the £1 now. Really dumb bet from him btw, couldn't hate it more.

[SuuPRlim]

Hand 2.

Bet the turn again imo, if you wanna turn your hand into a bluff catcher then flop or river is the place to do it imo, your flop range is pretty strong betting J82 twotone into 4 players (even with the pf initiative) so I don't think you get floated all the wide, with the range you have vs a player who's range is full of 8x, 9T, J9/JT (KJ and AJ as well ofc) and spade/spade hands, and with a pretty strong range yourself I hink you should bet again. Checking caps your range, also lets some of his weaker sdv hands show down and realise equity for free and once we check we're always calling so we're commiting ourself to pay his better hands off - and this villain is going to be able to value-bet vs us quite well.

Yes you will induce somee bluffy double barrells but almost all his turn bluffs will have some decent equity vs us so "tricking" hands with equity to barrell against us when we're OOP isn't really that desireable.

Once betting the turn i'd prolly chk to c/c or c/f the riveer depending what it is, chk/call most I think as he'll prolly be obligated to bluff a lot of rivers, 7's, espcially, and Q's as well prolly, not tooo sure what i'd do on a spade...


I think you're kind of over-complicating your thought processes by constantly second guessing what you "expect" your opponent to do with what hand in whatt spot etc, I think you need to be a bit bolder with these weaker value hands, whereas turning hands into bluff catchers is perfectly viable in a lot of spots, andd these spots are when your range is weaker than your opponents, and you happen to have a strong part of your range, but turning medium strength hands into B-C's just because the board gets a lil scarier is quite a weak way to play if you do it all the time. It doesn't protect your checking range either if you do it with this frequency it just polarizes your betting range.

[dreenie]

Hand 1 - I'm raising the river to £166 total. Think he never bets £1 with straights or sets, maybe 2 pair, not confident he bets a higher 2 pair for £1 tho.

I'm probably only worried by A9 at this point, I think more often than not you win the pot more than what you lose, so I think raising the river when he bets £1, will be profitable in the long run.

He's probably got like A10/A8 or something, and just wants to get to showdown.

[dreenie]

Hand 2 - I'm just folding the river. I agree about the draws etc, but there's too much that beat you imo. Agree with Dave, should be betting turn for value, also if u bet flop, and bet turn, and get called twice, then if u do check river, he should check back most rivers he is losing too, so u get 2 streets of value, and no headaches/level wars with yourself during the hand.

[TL900]

hand 1 - call £1

hand 2 - Dunno why you think villian is gona have a bunch of random floats in his range when it goes 4 way and u bet on J82ss. Bet turn again to get value from all the draws and stuff, as played fold river doesnt seem close imo

[LonOhRay]

Hand #1

Call £1

He's not opening up the betting with this size for no reason when he can check back weak-medium hands.

#2

Bet/Bet/ check call nearly all rivers

[lee h]

I take a few minutes


whatevr you do in the hand is fine....except this!!!...get on wit hit ffs

[Honeybadger]

I take a few minutes


whatevr you do in the hand is fine....except this!!!...get on wit hit ffs

Victor Meldrew ITT.

Lee

Of course, you are right though!

[PaintingByNumbers]

Like the posts Dave.

Hand 1

We check with the intention of check raising and check raising most brick rivers, hearts and A/3's.

Do you mean ch/r River when the Turn is checked through or ch/r both?

If you think,

TURN
 

We check with the intention of check raising and check raising most brick rivers, hearts and A/3's.

He obliges with a bet of £27, we take a little time and make it £65.
(a little bit of 'leveling' but we've never done this to this particular villain in any hand, ever.  I know we're never light here, but think he will assume its just some JBspew and peel/ peel most decent Ax and Kx as we rep so little - obv hearts are a bonus)

then surely we should bet the River?
It doesn't improve our range to beat his v much and doesn't improve his range to such an extent that we're not getting Value.

We check with the intention of re-evaluating on certain bet sizings and he tries something I know he's experimenting with tonight and bets £1.

How did the experimenting go?

Hand 2

hand 2 - Dunno why you think villian is gona have a bunch of random floats in his range when it goes 4 way and u bet on J82ss. Bet turn again to get value from all the draws and stuff, as played fold river doesnt seem close imo

It doesn't have to be a random float for it to be a pretty wide floating range.
But, he is IP vs a weak cbet on a board which heavily favours position with plenty behind (?) and with loose passives in the blinds shouldn't expect a ch/r much.

Hand 2 - I'm just folding the river. I agree about the draws etc, but there's too much that beat you imo. Agree with Dave, should be betting turn for value, also if u bet flop, and bet turn, and get called twice, then if u do check river, he should check back most rivers he is losing too, so u get 2 streets of value, and no headaches/level wars with yourself during the hand.

We don't think this will be the case most of the time.

we check and he takes a little while before flicking in 3x £25 chips and a single £1 for a £76 river bet...
at this point we haven't seen him value bet this big at any stage in any hand, i would expect £45-55 from KJ type hands.. and clearly from the runout there is very little he can have that wants to put a big bet in for value considering my line of cbet, cc, c.

I take a few minutes and then realize from the board texture otf that he should have so many spades/ straights/ combo draws and clearly has to bluff them otr vs my 'capped range' (do I really check JJ ott?).  He can hand read and probably sees me as having at best AA, but most likely QJ-AJ/ QQ type hands.

Why would he not bluff a missed draw vs an uncapped range? What matters is how often he has the best hand.
Why would you have AA?
If he bets more, he can bluff more. Everything has missed and as you say you have a capped range so he is going to feel pretty confident with AJ.

[rfgqqabc]

Tank bet massive in the first. If he calls and you can find out if your behind before just show the 3 and muck, ask for £500 more and get ready to sit fairly tight but make a bunch of  monies.

We checked to call both and I've not seen much of a gamechanger with your image.
I much prefer betting the turn for value/protection especially if we have to fold to his second bet, and it almost feels like we should now. Definitely go for some soul reads.

[Patonius2000]

Hand 1 - Call turn, c/r is not good. Call river because no one minbets thin here and calls off a big raise in my experience. Or he has a better hand and isn't folding. (you could also r/f £3 to tilt him but that has the added risk of getting blown off your hand if he decides to go beserk).

Hand 2 - I read your notes but still fold pre. Bet turn. River I think is very close in a live game. Depends how well you expect him to vbet. Probably call.

[AlexMartin]

hand 1 turn cr is pretty bad. You overrep your hand, stop villain barreling when you can have him dead, open yourself up to being bluffed, better to have some stronger hands in your range for calldowns.

 just call river, valuetown yourself raising vs anyone competent. Your image would have to be pretty ool for double cr to be good.


hand 2 i think id bet river, definitely value there even if it did go 4 to the flop.

[pokerzzzzz]

h1: wow, trainwreck. def x/c turn
h2: likely the bottom of your range [though it might also be the only few hands in your range]

[Deadman]

H1- make it £2
- bet turn. C/decide river.