How bad is it to call here?

[mondatoo]

@monda, that was ! Premium no?! And that was vs a maniac yes, but he defended 83s oop and yes, I like to 3bet light just to isolate those sort of players so we go heads up with me in position with the betting lead, I think it's wayy better than calling and going multiway where you usually have to make the best hand to win. Obviously this is vs players with low/0 4bet bluff frequencies.

Some selection bias from you there I think - yes sometimes I make hands with these light 3bets, and these are the hands that get reported on live updates etc, you don't hear about all the times I miss the flop and win/lose the pot without showdown.

#notbitterhonest

does sound a bit bitter tbh monda.

@pads, good post, I suppose the counter argument is that you lose out all the times they are 4b/calling or 5b/calling with hands like AT, 88+ and they flop terrible and have to c/f or you just get one bet from them.

Lol rly ?

Selection bias ? I can't know you do it if it isn't mentioned, I was generally interested in your though process as you should obv be better playing deep than I am due to the games we grind. I mentioned  2 pr on turn as I remember that and thought it would jog your memory, as for WPT I did think the hand sounded a bit spewy tbh but saw no point in derailing your staking thread to ask you and didn't want to be a twat and possibly tilt you as people don't seem to like that. Plus why would I care if it was, if it was you or 99% of blondes I'd want you to win as opposed to some random.

As for me being bitter, ermm of what ? You realise my roi in live comps is pretty ridic huge rite since I rarely play live ?  Or do you mean monetary ? Well I'd guess you've probs averaged 5 maybe even 6 days out of 7 p/w since you started playing poker for a living ? I've done it nearly twice as long and on average probs played 1 day in every 3 probs closer to 4, so quite clearly we value things in life pretty differently.

[cambridgealex]

@monda, that was ! Premium no?! And that was vs a maniac yes, but he defended 83s oop and yes, I like to 3bet light just to isolate those sort of players so we go heads up with me in position with the betting lead, I think it's wayy better than calling and going multiway where you usually have to make the best hand to win. Obviously this is vs players with low/0 4bet bluff frequencies.

Some selection bias from you there I think - yes sometimes I make hands with these light 3bets, and these are the hands that get reported on live updates etc, you don't hear about all the times I miss the flop and win/lose the pot without showdown.

#notbitterhonest

does sound a bit bitter tbh monda.

@pads, good post, I suppose the counter argument is that you lose out all the times they are 4b/calling or 5b/calling with hands like AT, 88+ and they flop terrible and have to c/f or you just get one bet from them.

Lol rly ?

Selection bias ? I can't know you do it if it isn't mentioned, I was generally interested in your though process as you should obv be better playing deep than I am due to the games we grind. I mentioned  2 pr on turn as I remember that and thought it would jog your memory, as for WPT I did think the hand sounded a bit spewy tbh but saw no point in derailing your staking thread to ask you and didn't want to be a twat and possibly tilt you as people don't seem to like that. Plus why would I care if it was, if it was you or 99% of blondes I'd want you to win as opposed to some random.

As for me being bitter, ermm of what ? You realise my roi in live comps is pretty ridic huge rite since I rarely play live ?  Or do you mean monetary ? Well I'd guess you've probs averaged 5 maybe even 6 days out of 7 p/w since you started playing poker for a living ? I've done it nearly twice as long and on average probs played 1 day in every 3 probs closer to 4, so quite clearly we value things in life pretty differently.

I don't mean bitter of any of that stuff, you said it in the first place "notbitterhonest", referring to my rungood at making hands postflop, so that's all I was getting at - it did sound like you were a tad bitter about that, and I was just defending the "spew" and saying that it only seems that way because of selection bias and because my style involves 3betting light a lot so I'm going to make more hands than others because I play more hands.

[mondatoo]

@monda, that was ! Premium no?! And that was vs a maniac yes, but he defended 83s oop and yes, I like to 3bet light just to isolate those sort of players so we go heads up with me in position with the betting lead, I think it's wayy better than calling and going multiway where you usually have to make the best hand to win. Obviously this is vs players with low/0 4bet bluff frequencies.

Some selection bias from you there I think - yes sometimes I make hands with these light 3bets, and these are the hands that get reported on live updates etc, you don't hear about all the times I miss the flop and win/lose the pot without showdown.

#notbitterhonest

does sound a bit bitter tbh monda.

@pads, good post, I suppose the counter argument is that you lose out all the times they are 4b/calling or 5b/calling with hands like AT, 88+ and they flop terrible and have to c/f or you just get one bet from them.

Lol rly ?

Selection bias ? I can't know you do it if it isn't mentioned, I was generally interested in your though process as you should obv be better playing deep than I am due to the games we grind. I mentioned  2 pr on turn as I remember that and thought it would jog your memory, as for WPT I did think the hand sounded a bit spewy tbh but saw no point in derailing your staking thread to ask you and didn't want to be a twat and possibly tilt you as people don't seem to like that. Plus why would I care if it was, if it was you or 99% of blondes I'd want you to win as opposed to some random.

As for me being bitter, ermm of what ? You realise my roi in live comps is pretty ridic huge rite since I rarely play live ?  Or do you mean monetary ? Well I'd guess you've probs averaged 5 maybe even 6 days out of 7 p/w since you started playing poker for a living ? I've done it nearly twice as long and on average probs played 1 day in every 3 probs closer to 4, so quite clearly we value things in life pretty differently.

I don't mean bitter of any of that stuff, you said it in the first place "notbitterhonest", referring to my rungood at making hands postflop, so that's all I was getting at - it did sound like you were a tad bitter about that, and I was just defending the "spew" and saying that it only seems that way because of selection bias and because my style involves 3betting light a lot so I'm going to make more hands than others because I play more hands.

Anyone who's bitter about how golden you may or not be would be directly in relation to how much money you've won resulting from said goldenness, obv.

Anyways, back to topic.

[JustinSayne]

Fold > click it > Jam > Call

IMO

[Doobs]

Assume hero has dem mad readz and is a lucky player.

Fold > click it > Jam > Call

IMO

Under the assumptions in the OP why would u ever jam here? He'd be calling off 18k to win 22k, so needs to think he's 45%+....if he has those reads he calls...oh and he's lucky too.

As already discussed by others, what does a 5b ever ever achieve here?

ps. posted my previous with selected boards as I had an identical situation with  last Friday in a deepstack, so delighted to see this thread appear.  Not wanting to hijack thread, but I flatted the 4b with plans for different boards...and would be very interested to see how Alex (and others) continue post flop in such a similar situation.

18k to win 27k or so.  If we jam this we should we even be looking at our cards?

[cambridgealex]

Flat > fold > 5b for me

BUT

I think you need to have specific game plans of how you're going to proceed on the flop (before you've even seen it).

So what would you do on flops:

a) 
b) 
c) 
d) 
e) 
f) 

And probs more importantly, how do you think he will play oop to them?

*sorry if I've duplicated suits of your hole cards, think u get the idea.

Well it depends so much on my read of the player, but if we assume no reads and he cbets a standard size then

a) fold
b) this is the trickiest one, probs call one
c) call
d) call
e) call
f) fold

[Doobs]

Assume hero has dem mad readz and is a lucky player.

Fold > click it > Jam > Call

IMO

Under the assumptions in the OP why would u ever jam here? He'd be calling off 18k to win 22k, so needs to think he's 45%+....if he has those reads he calls...oh and he's lucky too.

As already discussed by others, what does a 5b ever ever achieve here?

ps. posted my previous with selected boards as I had an identical situation with  last Friday in a deepstack, so delighted to see this thread appear.  Not wanting to hijack thread, but I flatted the 4b with plans for different boards...and would be very interested to see how Alex (and others) continue post flop in such a similar situation.

18k to win 27k or so.  If we jam this we should we even be looking at our cards?

Think we both wrong...more like 23.4k

3900x2 + blinds + antes + 18k.

[mulhuzz]

@Alex -- you said you only want to call here (prev had planned to fold..) until it was a min-click. what's the line for you here? literally 25 more chips than a min? 4000? 4100? 4500?

just interested to know how much of a difference you think the extra X chips makes (the marginal value of a chip, I guess) given that you're a) both quite deep, b) a bad hand and c) position.

i'm not sure it changes much but interested to hear your thoughts.

[outragous76]

Assume hero has dem mad readz and is a lucky player.

Fold > click it > Jam > Call

IMO

Under the assumptions in the OP why would u ever jam here? He'd be calling off 18k to win 22k, so needs to think he's 45%+....if he has those reads he calls...oh and he's lucky too.

As already discussed by others, what does a 5b ever ever achieve here?

ps. posted my previous with selected boards as I had an identical situation with  last Friday in a deepstack, so delighted to see this thread appear.  Not wanting to hijack thread, but I flatted the 4b with plans for different boards...and would be very interested to see how Alex (and others) continue post flop in such a similar situation.

18k to win 27k or so.  If we jam this we should we even be looking at our cards?

Think we both wrong...more like 23.4k

3900x2 + blinds + antes + 18k.

yup my my bad  

So he can call a bit wider...only needs 40%

Terrible thinking

[outragous76]

Assume hero has dem mad readz and is a lucky player.

Fold > click it > Jam > Call

IMO

Under the assumptions in the OP why would u ever jam here? He'd be calling off 18k to win 22k, so needs to think he's 45%+....if he has those reads he calls...oh and he's lucky too.

As already discussed by others, what does a 5b ever ever achieve here?

ps. posted my previous with selected boards as I had an identical situation with  last Friday in a deepstack, so delighted to see this thread appear.  Not wanting to hijack thread, but I flatted the 4b with plans for different boards...and would be very interested to see how Alex (and others) continue post flop in such a similar situation.

18k to win 27k or so.  If we jam this we should we even be looking at our cards?

Think we both wrong...more like 23.4k

3900x2 + blinds + antes + 18k.

yup my my bad  

So he can call a bit wider...only needs 40%

Terrible thinking

Sorry I should've expanded somewhat. Alot of casino regs will look at it and think 'I can call 18k to win 27k' and tell themselves 'I can't fold'

but we have 3 streets and chips back in a 4b pot

[Young_gun]

Surely hand is relevant here...

Agree if we have suited connectors then would be fine but over time this isnt good

[Mondeoman]

If you're not folding pre to the 4 bet then your ego is writing cheques your poker skills can't cash.

[PathFinder]

If you're not folding pre to the 4 bet then your ego is writing cheques your poker skills can't cash.

Lol how long we're you waiting to have the opportunity to say this

Surprised this hand has caused so much discussion, not seen a flop yet

#TheGoulderEffect

[muckthenuts]

Flat > fold > 5b for me

BUT

I think you need to have specific game plans of how you're going to proceed on the flop (before you've even seen it).

So what would you do on flops:

a)  
b)  
c)  
d)  
e)  
f)  

And probs more importantly, how do you think he will play oop to them?

*sorry if I've duplicated suits of your hole cards, think u get the idea.

Well it depends so much on my read of the player, but if we assume no reads and he cbets a standard size then

a) fold
b) this is the trickiest one, probs call one
c) call
d) call
e) call
f) fold

Surely this exemplifies why calling pre would be bad even despite the price? Even on textures we hit we're not thrilled and are basically gonna be left to guess whether our hand is good on future streets vs most opponents.

[pleno1]

Flat > fold > 5b for me

BUT

I think you need to have specific game plans of how you're going to proceed on the flop (before you've even seen it).

So what would you do on flops:

a)  
b)  
c)  
d)  
e)  
f)  

And probs more importantly, how do you think he will play oop to them?

*sorry if I've duplicated suits of your hole cards, think u get the idea.

Well it depends so much on my read of the player, but if we assume no reads and he cbets a standard size then

a) fold
b) this is the trickiest one, probs call one
c) call
d) call
e) call
f) fold

Surely this exemplifies why calling pre would be bad even despite the price? Even on textures we hit we're not thrilled and are basically gonna be left to guess whether our hand is good on future streets vs most opponents.

That's the case always unless you have a pair.


#nosetnobet

Just reminded me I need to reply to you, sorry buddy. Will tmro