lots of outs... what now?

[jgcblack]

Little bit strange as I've heard of fun loving players with a lot of money before...

I might even seem like it myself the amount I can get 'in for' sometimes.

But we will introduce player z - he is the single biggest 'whale' I have ever seen, met, had the pleasure of both meeting, talking to and learning to deal with.

And

Player y - he is a younger player, with a deep stack he has gotten by peeling pairs oop in bad spots and flopping or turning baby triplets.  He is on the 'tighter' side postflop but has been caught a little ool in recent times


They're both well into their second day in the room, possibly verging on a 3rd.


We have played pretty snug all session with only one 'bluff', which was vs these two.
A call, call, raise river on J10227 with A9.
Turns out y has yet again cc oop with a weak hand and now has the 89 were trying to rep, z has the donked mighty 82 for another 'top of range hand' and our one bluff does not get through.

Since then we have value bet vs Z a lot, somehow not getting it all on 885hh 4ss 10  with my 108 vs 86
he ckb turn....

So, weve adjusted by isolating Z with atc that can play well IP vs him and have 3 players on our left doing 0 about it.

[X] going well so far



THE HAND
Im effective with 550.  Z has 2k, Y covers.

Utg+1 open to 16 over straddle

Y calls IP and Z calls oop.



donk 31 from Z (this has been J5o to K8 - he does it a LOT), we call, Y calls.
our plan will be to isolate Z on good turns, never expect aggression even when he has K8. (Flatted second nutz twice so far)
This 'should' put Y in a tough spot, most raises commit us on good turns... expect him to fold bare Kx ott some %.


TURN


donk 63 (literally still atc, we've called down with A high and been good, a few times), we raise to 140 with 310 behind.

Y pretty quickly calls... (figure this is combo draw a lot, sometimes 66, Kx)
Z also calls.... (not unusual but not makes him probably paired.. - could genuinely be 22 tho - he bet/called aiott earlier with KQ vs 99 on 79106.....

RIVER


check from Z, we check and Y bets 240.

we fold......


thoughts ott?
River action for us on A, Q, J, 9, and complete bricks -2c???

[Honeybadger]

What were you planning to do on the turn if you got jammed on?

[outragous76]

Not sure i like your line with J high and a potentially dead fd

It's the kinda spot where the nfd is exponentially better than your holding

[paulhouk03]

Is this ten handed?

Fold pre ne1?

Fold turn also

[jgcblack]

Is this ten handed?

Fold pre ne1?

Fold turn also

you need to reread the paragraphs above:

- ive been getting to showdown vs player Z with A and Q high and been good... often.

folding pre is never an option.

folding turn with what is possibly still the best hand vs one player and knowing player Y is tighter but he is also going to give up more than he should IP vs the two of us.

What were you planning to do on the turn if you got jammed on?

fold vs any reraises from Z, he never takes aggression back postflop without nuts.

snap get in vs Y with 310 behind, 850ish in pot with his jam and a range of only AK, sets, 2p, pair+st+fd hands....
(Haven't stoved that range so don't know how well it plays - but Y wouldn't have Axhh here and raise.

Not sure i like your line with J high and a potentially dead fd

It's the kinda spot where the nfd is exponentially better than your holding

only reason A9hh would be better here is the A high will be good vs Z most of the time but a good J high will only be good some %
Y can have Axhh hands but that's only a small weighting of his continuing range ott.

[jgcblack]

Part of raising the turn is to get Y to make his hand faceup... I believe he folds most of his draws and only sometimes jams his big hands, but that I take most of his one pair range out by raising Z's donk bet.

[pleno1]

you think these fish fold their draws?



need full hh of the a9 please.

[LonOhRay]

It's K865

How is jack high ever the best hand here and why is that ever in your thoughts

It's not as if you're going to check it back for it's showdown value so that's completely irrelevant

Tighten up and stop getting in these bloated pots and uncomfortable spots regardless of how weak the table is. Don't need to win every pot regardless if you have a 27 card nut flush wrap that bricked on the river

The pot is 3 ways and you have jack high quite likely drawing to 3 outs

Raise calling either player for stacks on turn is obviously a losing play - giving up your equity r/f
Check folding all rivers that aren't a 7 or a heart as you won't get enough folds and no other rivers are good cards to bluff 3 ways


Hope I've read this all right


Sit in some games with our friend KR and copy what he does and see how he has a variance free 50 hourly this year in games up to 1/3 without ever getting into spots like this.

[Honeybadger]

JB, this is such a bad turn raise. If it was an all-in bet then fine, provided you consider you have some fold equity (unlikely considering you think the first player will call with 22!). But it is not an all-in raise, there is still room for one fairly large 3bet jam. And if you get jammed on you have just created a horrible spot for yourself. You either have to fold a hand with substantial equity against the jammer's range (having put a large amount of money in yet failing to see the river), or you have to call the all-in with Jack high. Neither of these are good situations.

You can play around with pokerstove and create various villain ranges, and I'm sure you can find ranges against which you are 'priced in' to call the jam. However, being just priced in to call (i.e. you are fairly indifferent to calling or folding) is pretty much the worst possible thing that can ever happen to you during a poker hand. If you have a 'break even call' you have lost the pot. I explained this to you a while back.

If you want to have a raising range on the turn then it should be a polarised range consisting of extremely high equity hands (which will happily call a jam) and extremely low equity hands (which will happily fold to a jam). Raising a mid-equity hand like this is bad poker, both in a theoretical and a practical sense.

[outragous76]

* shakes head*

(I'm drunk, that's all I can manage jb)

But seriously your thinking in this hand is way off!

[stato_1]

Is this ten handed?

Fold pre ne1?

Fold turn also

you need to reread the paragraphs above:

- ive been getting to showdown vs player Z with A and Q high and been good... often.

folding pre is never an option.

folding turn with what is possibly still the best hand vs one player and knowing player Y is tighter but he is also going to give up more than he should IP vs the two of us.

What were you planning to do on the turn if you got jammed on?

fold vs any reraises from Z, he never takes aggression back postflop without nuts.

snap get in vs Y with 310 behind, 850ish in pot with his jam and a range of only AK, sets, 2p, pair+st+fd hands....
(Haven't stoved that range so don't know how well it plays - but Y wouldn't have Axhh here and raise.

Not sure i like your line with J high and a potentially dead fd

It's the kinda spot where the nfd is exponentially better than your holding

only reason A9hh would be better here is the A high will be good vs Z most of the time but a good J high will only be good some %
Y can have Axhh hands but that's only a small weighting of his continuing range ott.

This post is an absolutely prime example of making your reasoning suit your argument the other way round.

You say that the parts of his range Axhh, Qxhh, and infact any Q or A high hand are not big enough to worry about Axhh being a better hand for you to have, yet you think you're often winning with Jack high on k865. Which of these two things do you genuinely think are more likely? (I'll give you a clue, if you think it's the second one, you're wrong)

[Honeybadger]

And also, exactly what hands can J9 possibly be beating? I don't even mean what 'reasonable' hands are you beating... I mean that J9 is hardly beating any pure random hands. 72, 73, 43, 42, 32 and T9 are the only hands out of all possible hands that you are beating with J9.

[pleno1]

Full Tilt Poker Game #32716476107: Table Swiftly Tilting (6 max) - NL Hold'em - $1/$2 - 00:52:03 CET - 2013/05/26 [18:52:03 ET - 2013/05/25]
Seats: 6
Seat 1: mue17 ($364.35)
Seat 2: mr_bigx ($298.75)
Seat 3: MaverickSantos ($517.60)
Seat 4: carmarkozg ($200)
Seat 5: Somyung Sim ($251.90)
Seat 6: pads1161 ($267.95)
mr_bigx posts the small blind of $1
MaverickSantos posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pads1161 [ ]
carmarkozg folds
Somyung Sim folds
pads1161 has 8 seconds left to act
pads1161 raises to $6
mue17 has 15 seconds left to act
mue17 raises to $18
mr_bigx folds
MaverickSantos folds
pads1161 calls $12
*** FLOP *** [td ] (Total Pot: $39, 2 Players)
pads1161 checks
mue17 has 15 seconds left to act
mue17 has requested TIME
mue17 bets $33
pads1161 folds
Uncalled bet of $33 returned to mue17
mue17 mucks
mue17 wins the pot ($37.05)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $39 | Rake $1.95
Board: [td ]
Seat 1: mue17 (button) collected ($37.05), mucked
Seat 2: mr_bigx (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: MaverickSantos (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: carmarkozg didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Somyung Sim didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: pads1161 folded on the Flop

look at this hand and take something from it mate.

[Honeybadger]

Just seeing the name Swiftly Tilting brings back so many happy memories from my grinding days. It is a genius name for a Rush Poker incubator.

[pleno1]

Just seeing the name Swiftly Tilting brings back so many happy memories from my grinding days. It is a genius name for a Rush Poker incubator.

lol this is v true.