ICM vs Chip Count deals help please

[0800]

Until recently, I had never heard the term "ICM deal".  I was watching the final table of the Stars SCOOP main event when it came up in negotiations, and it seemed to cause a lot of disagreement.  Then, again, today I saw the same thing in the Wembley updates.  So;

a) What essentially are the differences and,
b) Which is the fairest method?

Cheers.

[JK]

ICM uses an ICM calculator (http://www.icmpoker.com/Calculator.aspx). You enter the prize money and chip counts into the calculator, and it theoretically runs the tournament an infinite number of times. The amounts given is essentially the value of your chips in this infinite number of runs.

Chip count is ((sum of remaining money)-(last place*number of players)) / (chips in play). This gives you the value of 1 chip. Then you multiply this number by the stacks, then add the last place finish to get the amount they would get in a chip chop.

iirc, ICM is better for big stacks, Chip Count is flatter.

[George2Loose]

ICM better for short stacks

[JK]

ICM better for short stacks

Always get them the wrong way round. Couldnt remember which way so punted XD

[nirvana]

ICM better for short stacks

Always get them the wrong way round. Couldnt remember which way so punted XD

All input welcomed

[0800]

Ah, OK, so chip cound favours bigger stacks as it is based SOLELY on the one instance of the tourney in question whereas, with ICM, it doesn't favour the big stacks so much as it is based on MANY instances of the tourney from that dealing point which would mean, of course, that the little stacks would make comebacks/ ladder a percentage of the time if it is run an infinite number of times...

Thanks, makes sense now.

[JK]

Ah, OK, so chip cound favours bigger stacks as it is based SOLELY on the one instance of the tourney in question whereas, with ICM, it doesn't favour the big stacks so much as it is based on MANY instances of the tourney from that dealing point which would mean, of course, that the little stacks would make comebacks/ ladder a percentage of the time if it is run an infinite number of times...

Thanks, makes sense now.

Exactly this

[AndrewT]

Ah, OK, so chip cound favours bigger stacks as it is based SOLELY on the one instance of the tourney in question whereas, with ICM, it doesn't favour the big stacks so much as it is based on MANY instances of the tourney from that dealing point which would mean, of course, that the little stacks would make comebacks/ ladder a percentage of the time if it is run an infinite number of times...

Thanks, makes sense now.

Exactly this

Nope - it's nothing to do with how many times it's run.

I think that in a winner takes all tourney, chip count = ICM. However, the fact that 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc win money means that smaller stacks have more equity (or, more correctly, a big stack has less equity as the chip leader can't win more that 1st place, and so the smaller stacks gain inverse-proportionally).

[Doobs]

Ah, OK, so chip cound favours bigger stacks as it is based SOLELY on the one instance of the tourney in question whereas, with ICM, it doesn't favour the big stacks so much as it is based on MANY instances of the tourney from that dealing point which would mean, of course, that the little stacks would make comebacks/ ladder a percentage of the time if it is run an infinite number of times...

Thanks, makes sense now.

Exactly this

ORLY?  

ICM is a reasonably accurate estimation based on probabilities and the real prize distribution, chip count simply isn't.  If someone insists on chip chop and you are below average chips just hit tournament restart.  

http://www.pokerjunkie.com/icm-explaining-the-independent-chip-model

[Simon Galloway]

Taken to an extreme, if you had one chip left, a chip chop might offer you an extra dollar from the prize pool.  Clearly you would prefer to gamble. If you had a massive CL, a chip chop offers you an amount fast approaching 1st prize - so you'd rather take the chop.

IRL, everyone has been CL with 6 players left, 75% of the chips in play and come 6th.

Taking the ICM numbers can never really be bad (without taking into account other variables such as opponent skill etc) and can often be quite good if it allows you to concentrate more on other tables where shit is happening.

For chip chops, snap-accept as CL and snap-refuse as short stack and you won't be far wrong.

[Doobs]

FWIW there are plenty of ICM apps on the market for smartphones.

I've got 'dealmaker' for my android.

I try not to do deals, but when I have to - and faced with regs trying to get unfair deals for themselves I get the phone out...punch all the data in and presto.

Surprising how many still try and get 'extra' though <sigh>

Talking of getting extra, I was heads up on one of the French sites a month or so ago.  My opponent asked if I wanted to deal.  He wasn't great, but it was late, so I thought why not.  There were only 360 Euros between 1st and 2nd, and I had 75% of the chips, so the auto deal comes out at 90 Euros above 2nd for him.  He then says he wants a lot more than 90 Euros...

I don't think I have ever hit the auto restart button so quickly.

[SirPerceval]

FWIW there are plenty of ICM apps on the market for smartphones.

I've got 'dealmaker' for my android.

I try not to do deals, but when I have to - and faced with regs trying to get unfair deals for themselves I get the phone out...punch all the data in and presto.

Surprising how many still try and get 'extra' though <sigh>

anyone know a good iPhone app thats does ICM and chip chop?

[dakky]

Taken to an extreme, if you had one chip left, a chip chop might offer you an extra dollar from the prize pool.  Clearly you would prefer to gamble. If you had a massive CL, a chip chop offers you an amount fast approaching 1st prize - so you'd rather take the chop.

IRL, everyone has been CL with 6 players left, 75% of the chips in play and come 6th.

Taking the ICM numbers can never really be bad (without taking into account other variables such as opponent skill etc) and can often be quite good if it allows you to concentrate more on other tables where shit is happening.

For chip chops, snap-accept as CL and snap-refuse as short stack and you won't be far wrong.

Chip chop good if you are CL and are trying to deal with fish who are desparate to deal; can even get more than 1st place money potentially!

FWIW there are plenty of ICM apps on the market for smartphones.

I've got 'dealmaker' for my android.

I try not to do deals, but when I have to - and faced with regs trying to get unfair deals for themselves I get the phone out...punch all the data in and presto.

Surprising how many still try and get 'extra' though <sigh>

ICM accounts for equal skill level so sometimes worth trying to get extra; it's where your deal making edge comes in

Especially live where ICM/Chip chop takes a pen/paper/ICM calculator to work out. Nothing wrong with trying to make a deal in your favour