You really ought to read this.......

[tikay]

It is a blog by a long time pal, Brad Willis, about some of our responsibilities in poker.

It is excellent in my personal opinion.


http://psta.rs/13H4onM

[claypole]

That sir is a cracking read - on so many levels, so muc sense talked. Without being controversial, I did think of our PHA board a little bit - sometimes not all the time, and in teg same way there are many who make everyone feel a contribtuiton is valid and seek to understand and others who are link "standard, donk" - end thread.

Good read.

[Ant040689]

He listed the mercenary way some pros talk openly about belittling the recreational opponent, but one question I have is, is there a way to quantify the demonstrative effect? From poor etiquette alone can we fathom a guess at how many rec players are feeling unwelcomed? Are we getting many long term rec players complaining that the game is becoming less fun?

Is it the drops in amateurs year after year in the same types of tourns? Is this occurring?

Wondering if it is a overhype from pro players to bash other players who talk strategy at the table, as another example, in fear that the fish will learn when really they may appreciate the insight and play creatively anyway.

I am not sure the nature of this beast is turning away players, but do think it is foolish to be anything but hugely polite and considerate at the table and where possible, further conversation when its there.

Is this a genuine problem to the future ratio of rec players vs pros?

Hmm.

[Marky147]

Great article, and what a coincidence that George Danzer is the subject of the video at the end Tikay!

Dmitri Nobles was on the table next to me for all of day 2 I think it was, and it was like a circus as he span up a pretty huge stack throughout the day. Was pretty funny to watch and he definitely loved the game

[c4ught]

Thank you for linking this article Tikay enjoyed reading it.

[fizix87]

It's a very good article, but I have found it quite interesting how a lot of the twitter discourse around it seems to frame the issue in a needlessly didactic way, making it about essentially young vs old, suggesting that older professional players 'get it' and create a good atmosphere for recreational players while younger people do not, when clearly the reality is going to be far more nuanced than that. I think these kinds of sweeping generalisations are often problematic because they force people to take 'sides' (in this case based on age) rather than properly engage with the substantive point.

Additionally I think there is a slight nostalgia for a time that never really existed, poker has always seemed to me to be very insular and intimadating to new players (although you could argue the 5/6 years I have been involved isn't a long enough time to accurately judge), there is always going to be a slight us vs them mentality amongst some people.

[DaveShoelace]

Great read. Even though he states otherwise, there is still an undercurrent that it's the young inteweb kids that are the problem here.

But having said that, this should be mandatory reading for just about every serious player.

[TommyD]

Lovely read.

One thing that is missed out though is how the internet kids were treated when they first went on the live scene.  Then it was the other way around, long time live pros sneered, laughed and generally made them as frosty a reception as possible.  I completely agree that the internet kid side of the equation has over compensated by their reaction and some just have the arrogance to ignore the fact a recreational player generally wants to have a fun and happy live experience, while not respecting the sums involved in the game or the other people at the table.  However it's not solely the fault of the internet generation, sections of the old live guard have a certain responsibility as well.

[Knottikay]

I need to read more stuff life that. It was compelling and also struck a chord with me. My 'before the bubble' moment (one of many if truth be told), was in a big on line tournament where I went out two spots from the cash. I knew, and understood why, nobody really cared. To me though, it hurt bad. I had satted in for only 50p, and a min cash was something like £300+. I watched the rest of the game play out, and knew that everyone left in that lobby would not give two hoots about my sighaments. Poker is like that sometimes  to most, if not all. of us.

[outragous76]

Im not sure why everyone is raving about this piece. Ok, he has a fair point, but its from a single point of view. There are lots of things about the article which are so one sided it becomes a poor read.

There is no mention of aspiration. Some people that are playing their first event WANT to play against the best, (including some of the young kids), and will see the way that they act as fun (assuming its not obnoxious). We cant assume that everyone is 50 years old (id suggest the biggest demographic is now sub 30).

He makes a big thing about it being his first WSOP event and a big $1500 buy in. Does this mean that he has never played his local $50 buy in roffling around with his mates, having a few beers, perhaps throwing in his chips because his mates have bust and are moving on to a bar? Would he be self critical at that point? On mans $1500 is another mans $100,000 is another mans $50. Don't make people act to your own expectations.

Im pretty sure that the "kids" roffling around on day 1 are going to have a whole other attitude to the game when they final. Maybe the man who shared a table with him, and was put off initially, can then watch him ship a bracelet and might even change his opinion  when the kid has his game face on and crushes?

We cant all be 40 year old men. These kids are having fun, let them have fun. Providing they aren't being abusive to players (which isn't the angle of the article), then don't direct their actions. I would sooner play with a lively 20 something than a generic 40 year old business man, or even many of the "old school pros". First the kids get told they need personalities to "promote the game " on TV, then they get told to settle down, you are scaring off the punters.

The article has a merit, but as for raving on about it, im sorry I don't buy it. Its one persons view, and yes maybe some people can take some pointers, but then so can some of the punters too.

It reminds of the thread recently where people where lauding the "loud and verbose" old guy. Well yes those guys are fun at the table, right up until they crush your dreams and give you a rub down. Look how polarising Laurence Gosney is. People who have only been on the receiving end of his table persona don't like him, anyone who has spent time with him will tell you he is a great guy.

The article should be don't judge guys for what they do at the table, judge them for how they are away from it

[RED-DOG]

"My point is simply this: if you want an insular world in which only the best play against the best, then, by all means, do your best to make the new money feel unwelcome. Make sure they know they aren't part of your clique. Make sure they know you would prefer to play against people who make perfect plays. And, then, eventually, make sure you cripple your your expectations for your earning potential, because there is only so much money you can win inside your circle of friends.

Today, I'm just some guy who hasn't played a lot by modern standards. But, I've played enough to know that winning involves a lot more than playing against your friends and the fish you know. Sometimes you need to thank the guys who bust before the bubble."



This is great advice. It basically says you should make an effort to be pleasant toward your fellow players, especially those less fortunate or capable than yourself.

It says that you should respect them, make time for them, make them feel like they belong, and it gives sound financial reasons for doing so.


Well I think those lessons apply equally well to everyday life.

Be nice to people, respect them and if you can, do something to make their life better, even if it's only with a smile and a kind word.

There is no financial incentive, but I promise you hand on heart, the rewards are worth more than money.

[Tal]

There's a joke among bloggers that the people you see sitting down half an hour before a tournament begins are the people who are the least likely to win an event.

This interested me.

I detest being late for a tournament. In fact, I detest being there on time.

I like being one of the first people to a table. I can scope the landscape, introduce myself to the dealer and begin to compile my profiles of the players as they arrive, one by one.

It's as much a people game as it is a card game. Certainly to me, anyway. It's fun. I like to get a table chatting, relaxed, comfortable. Yes, this makes it harder to bluff (lie) convincingly but, so much more importantly, if I'm going to spend seven, eight, twelve hours in a chair, I'm jolly well going to make sure I enjoy it.

Proper fish, me.

[titaniumbean]

he makes a valid point, but as fizix points out 'the older generation' who live to angle and berate are hardly good for the game either!

let's have some semblance of balance.

[tikay]

There's a joke among bloggers that the people you see sitting down half an hour before a tournament begins are the people who are the least likely to win an event.

This interested me.

I detest being late for a tournament. In fact, I detest being there on time.

I like being one of the first people to a table. I can scope the landscape, introduce myself to the dealer and begin to compile my profiles of the players as they arrive, one by one.

It's as much a people game as it is a card game. Certainly to me, anyway. It's fun. I like to get a table chatting, relaxed, comfortable. Yes, this makes it harder to bluff (lie) convincingly but, so much more importantly, if I'm going to spend seven, eight, twelve hours in a chair, I'm jolly well going to make sure I enjoy it.

Proper fish, me.

That is so close to my line it is scary.

I doubt, ever since I began playing poker, that I've ever sat at a poker table & failed to say "hi" to everyone. for all the reasons you mention. Let's enjoy ourselves, we are all recreationals. I doubt 3 in 10 reply. Not because they dislike me, which would be fair enough - most don't know me, & that is especially so in Vegas - but because it would seem that the notion of someone saying "afternoon guys" at a poker table is like something from a different universe.  I actually think it makes some of them unconfortable, oddly enough. Who is that weirdo who wants to say hello?

Newbies, not so much, it helps them feel comfy, & to them, unused to the ways of poker, they actually think it is quite normal to say "hi".

Can you imagine a world where we sit down to share a table, & a game, for up to 12 hours, & we cba to even say "hi" to each other?

This is not a "new school" thing by the way, it has always been that way, young & old alike.

I have no prob if they don't want to chat, fine by me. But to not exchange civil greetings?

It may be me that is weird, but I find that astonishing.

[pleno1]

Really feel like doing an opposite of the op after my recent trip to Newcastle, will do it in my blog tomorrow.

This is all from a 'old recreational' player pov rater than a 'young recreational' player.