You really ought to read this.......

[DungBeetle]

"Poker is probably the most egotistical sport/game in the world bcos absolutely everyone can participate so the differnce in levels between competing players is greater than all other sports"

This doesn't make sense to me.  The wider the skill margin the lower the need for egostical self boosts.

If I played Tiger Woods in a pro-am golf event, he wouldn't feel the need to give it the big one when he beat me or belittle my poor stroke.

I think the people who stroke their own egos in poker do so because they know deep down that they aren't very far ahead of the recreational player, despite all the hours they have worked at the game.

[Fish]

"Poker is probably the most egotistical sport/game in the world bcos absolutely everyone can participate so the differnce in levels between competing players is greater than all other sports"

This doesn't make sense to me.  The wider the skill margin the lower the need for egostical self boosts.

If I played Tiger Woods in a pro-am golf event, he wouldn't feel the need to give it the big one when he beat me or belittle my poor stroke.

I think the people who stroke their own egos in poker do so because they know deep down that they aren't very far ahead of the recreational player, despite all the hours they have worked at the game.

you have understood what i said then as you just explained it the people with the egos are not the good players but the ones who think they, i probably didn't word it right

[Bad Beat]

 While I was reading this thread my mind went back to long car journies to Cornwall as a child.

 My sister and I would be in the back and my mum and dad would be in the front. Sometimes my sister might pinch me and I might thump her leg. One or other of us would then try and get the other in trouble and my mum would be cross the the one who seemed most at blame.

 At some point either my sister or I would come out with: "He/She started it."

 I think there are some intelligent people in the thread. Surely it's a given that nobody likes old pros who attempt to angle-shoot. Luckily that doesn't happen too often. I would say I have come accross an angle-shoot by an old guy only about three times in the last five years.

 I think we should all be able to agree that for this game to continue it is neccessary to recruit new players all the time and to keep them playing as long as possible. Hard to see how anyone could disagree with that.

 How then is it that many players I have encountered recently can't seem to see that it is the duty of all players who make money from the game, (assuming they'd like that to continue), to not do anything that might discourage new players from returning to play more often (that's the least they should do, even if they feel they aren't capable of/can't be arsed to try and do things to actively encourage these players to return).

 In the last week I have had players tell me it's their right to behave as they like, to be as rude as they like to people and to not give a fuck if old people never come back and play. Obviously it's your right to shit in the street but it may not be the best thing for the community.

 I loved Brad's blog. For me though, the issue has been sidetracked a little by talking exclusively about talking strategy at the table. I certainly think that is a bad thing for the gambling atmosphere. My real beef however is with the younger pros who are only capable of engaging with players of their peer-group, who do so by speaking a language that alienates older recreational players, and who often put down the family guy trying to have a fun hobby and possibly make him reconsider if this game is as much fun as it should be.

 I would like to stress that I am certainly not saying this is all young people and although the group of players I'm describing are young it is certainly not all young people. I played today with an excellent US pro who plays online mtts in the UK. He played very well and he certainly understood that it was good for all of us if we chatted throughout the game. Nobody was excluded and everybody gambled and had fun. He probably got a lot more information from the other players and benefitted from the interaction. All of that is just an added benefit though. The reality is he engaged with some people who were way worse than poker than him, but were still interesting people, because he is a nice guy.

[The Camel]

I think interacting with the other players is especially crucial in the WSOP main event.

Do you really want to be bluffing the millionaire options trader or calling down with third pair the guy for whom a min cash would be 12 months wages?

If you've got your iPod on and a sullen look on your face, you'll never know anything about the guys you're playing until its too late.

[T8MML]

I guess I'm classed as "old school" because of age and perceived style (flair only in trouser bottoms) even though like so many others came to the game at the height of the Internet boom. I love the banter at the live table and do my fair share of "bantering" so much so that travelling mates have been known to text from some other table on the far side of a poker room with the simple acronyms "ffs stfu!"

I can't remember the last time I didn't say "hi" when coming to the table or even a tap on the table of "gl" at the start of any tourny ( of course you don't mean it but it's sickly nice). I agree with Stu that it is right to make a newbie enjoy the experience and have little time for players who openly belittle. I took my son who plays low stakes online to a small live tourny recently and you could tell from his conversation on the way he was nervously excited at the prospect. Like Stu I envied him that feeling. Sadly he sat on a table of mainly low stake know it alls who ridiculed him as he looked at chip denominations, mucked out of turn and generally struggled. Despite my assurances that he was just unlucky to get a table like that I think it will be a long time before he tries again.

Personally I like the spread of young "pesky" Internet kids and old school at the table. I think there is a place for both and one can't/shouldn't survive without the other.

One thing tho, why do younger players insist on populating every sentence with the word "like?" "I raised like x and he called like y so I clicked it back like and he like called" that does "like" get on my tits "like"

I also enjoyed Guy referring to other players over 40 as if he ain't there yet

[outragous76]

Norrrrr! I was reading your post trying to think of a great rub down, and get blown away by that!

I'm mean like, yo, I be 3 bet 5 bet 7 bet reverse jam new York back flip quadruple range merging your ass next time I have the [ ] pleasure of sitting next to you at a table yo

 

[T8MML]

Norrrrr! I was reading your post trying to think of a great rub down, and get blown away by that!

I'm mean like, yo, I be 3 bet 5 bet 7 bet reverse jam new York back flip quadruple range merging your ass next time I have the [ ] pleasure of sitting next to you at a table yo

 

"like"

[Tal]

Two improper types of "like":

Firstly, to be like is used as a substitute for to say or to do:

So I was like 'I'm gonna steal those blinds' but the pigeon in the BB wakes up and decides to be all like 'Over my pidgey body'


Secondly, it's a nothing word; just a word you use when you are trying to think of the end of the sentence instead of saying "er..."

So this, like, weirdo sits down and like starts spewing chips all over the place. I'm like loving that until he like cracks my mfkn aces

I think I prefer "like" to the f-word that plenty of people seem to use in the second sense all the time.

[T8MML]

Two improper types of "like":

Firstly, to be like is used as a substitute for to say or to do:

So I was like 'I'm gonna steal those blinds' but the pigeon in the BB wakes up and decides to be all like 'Over my pidgey body'


Secondly, it's a nothing word; just a word you use when you are trying to think of the end of the sentence instead of saying "er..."

So this, like, weirdo sits down and like starts spewing chips all over the place. I'm like loving that until he like cracks my mfkn aces

I think I prefer "like" to the f-word that plenty of people seem to use in the second sense all the time.

"like"

[MANTIS01]

I remember entering my first poker comp at the casino about 10yrs ago. It was really intimidating and moody and I loved it. In Vicky Coren's book she described her first trips to the Vic, the characters, the intimidation, and how she loved it. I don't agree with this notion that new players are shrinking violets who need protecting from mean nasty experienced pros. Obv having fun is a bonus but even rec players are ultimately playing poker to win money so will have the same tenacity as experienced players. Anyway, something a bit sinister about being all nice to newbies as you schmooze their money imo.

[vegaslover]

I agree in part Mantis, but the ones that don't get intimidated are likely the ones who will persevere to get better. In the main if 'noobies' don't like it they take their money elsewhere.

Personally I think you pick so much more information at the table just being normal and having sociable conversation with others

[relaedgc]

In my experience, I don't think the generation gap is indicatative of an individual's personality, which is ultimately the heart of the issue. I have seen just as many stone faced, unresponsive 'old school' players completely ignore a new generation internet 'whizz kid' as I have seen the 'whizz kid' berating the 'old school' player.

Conversely, I do think that there's plenty of scope for arguing that it is in fact the newer generation that suffer more at the felt - I've found that they're generally more forgiving to a newbie in the sense of a mistake, probably because there's a transition period of learning that they're more familiar with and able to relate to that an older 'reg' has long forgotten.

Unfortunately, I don't think we are ever going to eliminate this kind of mental attitude from the game. A younger, generally better 'poker' educated player is going to be analytical in his appraisal of any given situation and as a product, he/she is more likely to critique based upon a technical view point.

Ultimately, it's a conversation that's going to make catastrophic generalisations that are unfair to any 'breed' of poker player. I don't think you're ever going to have a table of players that are all the perfect gentleman, take it on the chin wish everyone good luck and trot off.

The easiest solution to a time old problem is for people to speak up and lead by example. Don't leave someone hanging with their greeting, as best as is possible don't berate a player for bad play and without wanting to come across all paternal, just try and gently educate individuals about etiquette and technical procedures.

I think people, especially new players, like to be made to feel welcome and have someone ensure that their understanding of the game is assisted. The rest is up to them, but setting an example that's positive will be noticed even by those most prone to acting adversely.

People will generally join in with the 'mickey taking' if it's seem as the done thing, so it would seem to me that if people set a good example and make a point of trying to help out then others who might have gone the other way will be more inclined to helpfulness.

[Bad Beat]

 Honestly...the problem is way worse than you guys seem to think. It's not a few guys chatting a little strategy in between hands or some guys being shy and refusing to take off their headphones...although those things don't help.

 What I see in every event now is a group of players, (a small subset of young players and it certainly does not include all young players), who are capable of holding a conversation, but all topics will alienate any person not in the clique as it's almost always poker, stories about people that outsiders will not know and boasting about money how much was won and spent. These people totally refuse to engage anyone outside of the clique - they talk over them if they try and join in and they generally simply ignore them.

 Sometimeds they talk strategy, and it is high-level, and often I see them sneering at recreational players and sometimes making comments about how bad they are, as if nobody else can hear what they are saying.

 It's disgusting.

 I have been seeing it in every event I play for over a year now, but it is way worse in the bigger buy-in WSOP events.

[kinboshi]

Talking about other player's play at the table whilst the other player is there (or even if they're not) is definitely one of the things that makes me cringe.

I don't think these 'regs' understand how bad it is, and how humiliating it can be. It's very much like 'culture shock'. For those who haven't experienced culture shock it happens when you go and live in another country for an extended period of time. It's not when you go on holiday and don't understand something, it's more than that. It's when you become paranoid that people are talking about you, it's when you miss familiar things, and it can really get you down (usually a temporary feeling).

I think it can feel similar to noobrecs in poker. They feel like an outsider to start with, and think that everyone must know everyone else at the table. Then they see some regs chatting between each other, and then there's the laughing joking that they're not part of. If it gets to the stage of them being berated by some of the players who don't seem to care that the subject of their conversation can hear their derogatory comments, this noobrec isn't going to be enjoying his evening as much as he'd hoped.

[MANTIS01]

Poker is a game of incomplete information so when these 'cool kids' are chatting strat they are dishing out free info to everybody else. Whenever you go to poker there are always these groups who tell the table how they would have played this and that type of hand. I would very much like the 'cool kids' to carry on with that really.