Man botches reshove spot in £50 tournament, rips up equity.

[Skippy]

£25 +1 tournament at DTD last night.

Blinds are 800/1600/100, I've got around 70k which is a lot, bearing in mind the average is only 32k.  They are paying 11 spots and there are around 40 left. Everybody else has around 20 big blinds on the table apart from the villains.

I'm UTG, and I raise it to 4k because I'm a bit retro with pocket . It's gets called in the cut-off by a big stack that just about covers me. Ras, a man who I suspect may not get his entire income from his poker, jams from the big blind around 16-18k. I'm pretty sure I'm doing just fine against Ras' range. I think for a bit and decide to flat. CO jams all in in for 47k more which just covers me.

I tank and reason that the only real hands I am scared of are 88-QQ, as surely he raises AA-KK pre. I'm getting 2:1 on a call. If I fold and he is ROFLing about with say QJ (which could very well be beating Ras), then it's a big disaster.  I'm not sure he reshoves with 88.  So I call it off.

So, whaddaya reckon? Fold pre? Fold to Ras's reshove? Reshove myself? Fold to CO's reshove?

[KarmaDope]

I'm probably wrong as a rec player that knows a bit - but I prefer shove > fold > flat.

Let's see what the better players have to say

[celtic]

I'm probably wrong as a rec player that knows a bit - but I prefer shove > fold > flat.

Let's see what the better players have to say

I agree with sharples.

[dwayne110]

Im folding quickly, could easily have flatted with a monster for deception and his range will have way more pocket + than pocket or less (is he really reshoving worse, over an 18k call from a stack that can hurt him if called?). If you fold youre still 20k over average stack, and pocket 3 way can rarely ever be in good change pre - way too high variance imo

[Skippy]

Im folding quickly, could easily have flatted with a monster for deception and his range will have way more pocket + than pocket or less (is he really reshoving worse, over an 18k call from a stack that can hurt him if called?). If you fold youre still 20k over average stack, and pocket 3 way can rarely ever be in good change pre - way too high variance imo

Are you folding to the initial shove, or the second shove?

[dwayne110]

I'm folding in both spots - if the initial shover has a raggy J-10/K-10 type hand we're still flipping (majority of his range will be overcards of some combination), with action behind still to unfold from a player who has us covered. Given your stack size and only 4k invested, why risk a call from the big stack if he's slow-playing a monster?

If you are going with the hand I'd definitely re-shove>call though, as the player behind you has a perfect stack to reshove over your call - it's just too easy to get exploited in a spot where you 'could' be ahead. Keep it simple - either fold to the £18k shove, or go all in. 

[wazz]

Well a proper reshove range should include some raggedy aces and low pairs so I'm happy to play my hand against the shortstack; I wouldn't be flatting, and if I did it would be to fold in this instance as we're nearly always up against it here. So shove > fold > flat vs the first jam and fold now, imo.

[jgcblack]

UTG 77 should be close to the bottom of our opening range....

therefore when anyone at the table announces 'raise' its a pretty trivial fold.

fold to first guy irrelevant of him being a little splashy, then easy fold to second guy.



our edge in these comps is pressure with stacksize at this part of the day.  We dont need any marginal decisions for this many chips imo.

If they show you 66 and T5o then pat them on the back and carry on.

[Skippy]

UTG 77 should be close to the bottom of our opening range....

Not so sure about that. I think I might be opening all pocket pairs (maybe ditching 22 and 33) and nearly all broadway combos except JT. A lot of other guys at the table have got a reasonable pile of chips so we can play (gasp!) post-flop poker. It's only the shorty in the BB who can reshove and oblige me to call.

therefore when anyone at the table announces 'raise' its a pretty trivial fold.

fold to first guy irrelevant of him being a little splashy, then easy fold to second guy.



our edge in these comps is pressure with stacksize at this part of the day.  We dont need any marginal decisions for this many chips imo.

If they show you 66 and T5o then pat them on the back and carry on.

When Ras has only got 12 bb, I'm getting big odds- I have to call 14k at a pot size 27k. I'm nearly getting 2 to 1 to call. The only reason I could possibly fold is because I am worrying about the second guy reshoving, so a big part of this problem depends on how often the guy behinds reshoves.

[dwayne110]

"our edge in these comps is pressure with stacksize at this part of the day.  We dont need any marginal decisions for this many chips imo.

If they show you 66 and T5o then pat them on the back and carry on."


This sums up my thinking ... if you believe you're a strong player it's too high variance in a spot where you can fold your 4k, still be 15-20k above average stack, and get your chips in the middle in better spots

[cambridgealex]

Ignoring the second guy for a second, If he shows you T5o then you've certainly made a terrible fold as you've grossly misjudged his range.

It's not results orientated to say "he had T5o so 77 is a call", even though it sounds it.

[MANTIS01]

fold pre

[theprawnidentity]

Pretty sure I'm iso'ing this shove unless I have any reason to believe to the flatter is nutted.  If he has goods, make sure you have the best hand at the end!

[TL900]

yea im in the fold pre camp. You say everyone has 20bb except these 2 villians which means we cant call/shouldnt vs anyone who gives us resistance apart from the bb (who shouldnt be that light at all jamming bb vs utg and a call with 11bb. If we get flatted play horrible post etc (which can very easily happen in live poker even if they all have 20bb)

is pretty close, def opening and going with 99+ probably.

As played its actually very close I think, antes are v small but there is 4k "dead money" in the middle and although the bb shouldnt be that light think the 4k in the middle makes it shove > fold > call I think, can be very easily convinced fold > shove though.

[TL900]

Well a proper reshove range should include some raggedy aces and low pairs

disagree when he has 11bb and I dont know how many live players reshove A4s etc in general anyway tbh