Interesting 1/1 hand.

[FredW]

Playing 1/1 at Gala in a pretty reggy game. Not sure whether I should post any names on this so will just describe villains as I perceive them.

I have history with almost all players at the table and my image is probably completely OOL. 4bet the villain previously and barrelled the flop before exposing the so certainly an interesting dynamic in place.

Active player opens the hijack to £6, competent player peels and I 3bet the button with to £30 playing around £1k. Villain then 4bets the BB to £90 playing about the same. Villain is a big winning reg and definitely the toughest/most aggressive spot at the table. I considered 5betting as it was an easy spot for him to be 4betting with ATC but decided 99 was probably a hand to peel with.

The flop comes   and the villain leads for £85. Expected him to use this bet sizing with his entire range here and could see no value in raising. Think I probably flat my entire range here including JJ-TT. I flat.

Turn is the   and the villain checks. Think this is the worst barrelling card for him as I can have some full houses here and rarely fold anything I called the flop with. Was unsure whether to bet here? I checked with the intention of calling the majority of rivers.

River is the  . Obvs the nut worst river card really as this hits his range pretty hard and makes it difficult for me to call any large bet. Villain then checks... Never really expected him to check this card and felt like he must have reasonable showdown value but not be nutted. I considered and overbet bluff on this river as I didn't think he would be able to call but eventually pussied out and decided to check.

Flame away.

[cambridgealex]

Pre is wp, if you were playing 500 or less then just piling it in would be the way to go. Would you 3bet any worse pairs than 99 here?

I'd fold the flop. JTx hits their range hard. Obviously we are basically dead to his value range, and we have poor equity vs his AK, AQ, KQ. Lots of his 4b bluffing range will have also out flopped you here- AJ, AT, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT, J9, T9, so a ton of combos.

We are ahead and in good shape of his pure bluffs like A4s but have very poor visibility (ie no idea where we are if he bets again), and there's only 2 good cards for us. We are also guessing at the frequency he cold 4bet bluffs in this spot, and what sort of hands he chooses to do it with. So we can't analysis his range accurately and thus are likely to make mistakes down the streets, (and mistakes with preflop ranges compound themselves massively down the streets (ie a slight preflop mistake can multiply into a hideous river call)). So just fold flop.

Check back turn as played seems fine/standard. When he checks river he obviously has at best AQ, but most likely is KJ, or AT sort of 2nd/3rd pair showdown value. 99 isn't going to win at showdown here hardly ever.
Whether to bluff the river all depends on what you think villain will do with the above bluff catchers (KJ, AT). I can't help you there, that's down to your dynamic/history.

If you do bet, I don't like an over bet, you need to rep a hand like QJ or KQ, going for thin value, so over betting polarises your range. Bet 2/3 pot imo.

Sounds like a fun £1/1 game with everyone 1k deep

[SuuPRlim]

if you have a crazy OOL preflop image then I like your play PF. Problem is I would question whether building this pre-flop dynamic with all these levels (I think he thinks etc) and variance vs other competent players is the best way to play, I personally don't think it is but plenty of cleverer people than me do. Certainly something to consider, people often dont realise when going batshit nutso p/f how that affects these spots, now we're in a potentially 2,000 big blind pot with 99.

Still, preflop is well played imo.

I'd defo fold the flop, getting stubborn with these underpairs in any spot is my pet hate, like alex says bad equity and bad visibility. I'd be pretty fkn tempted to bluff the river 1/2 to 2/3 pot make sure you dont lose to a T problem is we ca our range checking the turn so we could get played back at OTR quite a bit. I'd just check I think, you prolly win most of the time anyways. Im guesing he won the pot with T9 here?

[corkeye]

I fold flop too. Also don't show people your 3 barrell bluffs if you don't have to. Keep them guessing. Don't tarnish your image in a moment of ego induced madness, keep them guessing.

[FredW]

Cheers for the feedback guys. Looking back I think folding the flop is fine however in game it just felt really weak to peel, not flop a set and fold...

The almighty Mitch ended up scooping with   . Nice hand sir

[cambridgealex]

Villain is a big winning reg and definitely the toughest/most aggressive spot at the table .

Agree with the "big" part.

[wazz]

You played the hand fine, with possible deviations betting the turn and folding the flop, but your thinking is massively FPS and it really seems like you're trying to find reasons to do what you want to do. Why exactly is it a great spot for villain to be 4betting ATC?

[FredW]

You played the hand fine, with possible deviations betting the turn and folding the flop, but your thinking is massively FPS and it really seems like you're trying to find reasons to do what you want to do. Why exactly is it a great spot for villain to be 4betting ATC?

Because my 3betting range vs the initial raiser was super wide and with the stacks being so deep, I wasn't looking at playing big pots with the villain. Would expect him to 4bet any hands with blockers and it will take the pot down pre a lot.

[SuuPRlim]

I wasn't looking at playing big pots with the villain. Would expect him to 4bet any hands with blockers and it will take the pot down pre a lot.

You don't wanna play big pots then dont 3bet this hand preflop imo.

[Honeybadger]

The 3bet preflop is very optional; it is better to flat. I don't think you should be heavily depolarising your 3betting range in this way against competent opponents. Don't get me wrong, depolarising is fine when IP and deep - it's just that 99 is not a good hand to do it with. Hands like AQ and KQs (even JTs) are much better. But whatever... it is only preflop.

I strongly disagree with Alex that you should pile this in preflop vs a 4bet if you were 'only' £500 deep. Of course, Alex understands the game dynamics between you crazy kids better than I do, so maybe I am wrong. What I do know is that Mitch is going to have to be cold 4bet bluffing here with an insanely high frequency to make jamming 99 a profitable play with 500bb stacks. And even then it is only going to be very, very marginally profitable. But again, whatever... it is only preflop.

Flop has got to be a fold and it is not even remotely close. If you visualise your entire range then you will see that 99 is pretty much the weakest hand you can have here. You are allowed to fold the bottom of your range. Pretty much the entire rest of your range on this flop is sets, TP, 2nd pair, flush draws, OESDs, overs with BDFDs, overs with gutshots. Also note that QQ and some AA/KK are also in your range (QQ is not a stack off pre when 1000bbs deep, and you should definitely slowplay AA/KK sometimes). Just to be completely clear, it is far, far, far, far better to float this flop with a hand like AhQh than with 99. That is why 99 is pretty much the worst hand in your range on this flop.

I am not 100% sure whether you should have a raising range on this flop. The low SPR and the fact that you are IP points towards flatting your entire continuing range. However, most other factors point towards having a raising range. This is obviously a flop texture where you gain a LOT from value betting/protecting the strong parts of your range, as much as anything because there are a lot of turn and river cards that can come to either lose you the pot or lose you your action. Additionally, this is not a 'polarised range' situation - the board is far too dynamic for that - so villain's preflop 4bet has not created a bluff-catching dynamic between a strong polarised range and a mid-strength condensed range.

On balance, I think your range just feels so strong on this flop that it makes sense to have a raising range. You can turn all Mitch's overpairs into bluff catchers, which means you have 'won the pot' vs AA (regardless of what actually happens) provided you bluff raise the right amount of combos. And if you do decide to have a raising range on this flop then it is going to be insanely easy to find good bluff combos with which to balance your 6 combos of JJ and TT (and perhaps your AsKs, AsQs and KsQs type hands too). Every non-pair hand in your range has at least some robust equity and so can be a candidate to be used as part of your bluff-raising range. I guess the best hands to use as bluffs are going to be hands like AsQh.

Thinking about the hand from villain's perspective. I really like the cold 4bet, especially given stated table dynamics. Really good choice of hand to do it with obviously. Postflop, I am not at all sure that cbetting this flop with KQo is a good choice. This is one of the worst possible flops for an OOP preflop 4bettor. Perhaps villain should have only a very narrow cbetting range on this flop, so that he can adequately defend his checks - because he is going to be checking a lot on this flop, very often to give up. I am not sure about this, but it makes sense to have well-constructed c/c and c/r ranges here. I know villain can just think "ZOMG I has a straight draw... obvious cbet yo", but KQo still feels sort of an icky cbet tbh. It is probably fine to cbet it if hero does not have a raising range on this flop, but if hero does have a raising range then KQ might be a better c/c. I could be completely wrong here as these are just my initial thoughts, but hero's range seems at least as strong as villain's range on this flop... so it is not automatic to just cbet because you were the last preflop aggressor and have an OESD.

Edited to say: Please don't just read this post and treat it as gospel because I have worded it nicely. I am far from sure about some of the things I have said in the second half of the post. I think I am right, but I could easily be wrong. So if anyone disagrees please say so, and explain why you think I am wrong.

[SuuPRlim]

in game it just felt really weak to peel, not flop a set and fold...

It's not about flopping a set or not, it's about finding a flop with sufficient equity to continue on vs his range. Some flops will be great for your hand and your percieved range and you'll be able to play them aggressively, some flops will be awful for your range and your hand and you'll need to fold your 9's and in the middle of this will be the flops that you will need to make tighter decisions on (J53 for example, not great for either your hand, or your range but you will prolly have to defend for at least one bet) this flop falls into the catorgory of one which is good for your perceived range but your actual hand is so bad now that you'll find folding the best play - the mathematics of these spots are pretty brutal when you're equity is so poor - it  takes just little more equity to be considerably more forgiving.

Finding a the wrong flop, and continuing on it 1000 big blinds deep is a much weaker play then feeling like you've just set-mined wth 99 (which in itself is prolly still fine btw)

[AlexMartin]

Pre is wp, if you were playing 500 or less then just piling it in would be the way to go. Would you 3bet any worse pairs than 99 here?

I'd fold the flop. JTx hits their range hard. Obviously we are basically dead to his value range, and we have poor equity vs his AK, AQ, KQ. Lots of his 4b bluffing range will have also out flopped you here- AJ, AT, KJ, KT, QJ, QT, JT, J9, T9, so a ton of combos.

We are ahead and in good shape of his pure bluffs like A4s but have very poor visibility (ie no idea where we are if he bets again), and there's only 2 good cards for us. We are also guessing at the frequency he cold 4bet bluffs in this spot, and what sort of hands he chooses to do it with. So we can't analysis his range accurately and thus are likely to make mistakes down the streets, (and mistakes with preflop ranges compound themselves massively down the streets (ie a slight preflop mistake can multiply into a hideous river call)). So just fold flop.

Check back turn as played seems fine/standard. When he checks river he obviously has at best AQ, but most likely is KJ, or AT sort of 2nd/3rd pair showdown value. 99 isn't going to win at showdown here hardly ever.
Whether to bluff the river all depends on what you think villain will do with the above bluff catchers (KJ, AT). I can't help you there, that's down to your dynamic/history.

If you do bet, I don't like an over bet, you need to rep a hand like QJ or KQ, going for thin value, so over betting polarises your range. Bet 2/3 pot imo.

Sounds like a fun £1/1 game with everyone 1k deep

guessing you didnt see this was 1/1 alex. Cant imagine any game where putting in 500bb fullring with 99 would be smart.

[AlexMartin]

agree w others, dont like flop float. As played unless villain has shown a willingness to develop really balanced ranges before i think we have no option but to jam when he checks.

[Honeybadger]

@ AlexMartin, and everyone else:.

1. What do you guys think about hero having a raising range on this flop?

2. What about villain's cbetting strategy on this flop? And where should best KQo fit into his flop ranges? As a bet, a c/c or a c/r? (pretty sure c/r would be bad, but it is an option)

[cambridgealex]

@honeybadger, what do YOU think about the proposed river jam?