The state of the bookmaking industry..

[MahoganyVic]

I know its been discussed before on here, but had something occur today which annoyed me beyond belief.

Following the Long Term Bets thread on here I decided to have a pop at a few. Saw Hills were top price on the main fancy (Reading), so went there to put the bets on.

Tried for the following:

Reading Promotion £200 @ 7/2
Brighton Promotion £200 @ 5/1


The markets for all are quite illiquid @ betfair, but the midpoint is half a point lower for both, so the odds are generous.


I was offered the following:

Reading @ 7/4,
Brighton @ 2/1.

They wouldnt take a penny at the price offered, and I was left in the shop for approx 20 minutes while the guy was on the phone to a "trader" before he came back with the new prices. What is the world coming to when supposedly the biggest bookmaker in the country more than halves the odds before accepting a bet.

The online prices are still 3/1 and 4/1 so they were trying to take the piss beyond belief.

Also, I placed a bet on something which was lower than the betfair price, and they snap took £300 on it, despite it being a market a hundred times smaller than the championship outright.

[DungBeetle]

Terrible   You  should have asked for their "real" prices for every team so you can work out the margin!

[gouty]

This will happen more often in shops until the government level the playing field on wagers laid in the UK. However, I agree those prices offered are a joke.

I have worked in the betting shop and phone betting game for 25 years and its really hard to compete paying 15% gross profits tax compared to the pittance that online operators pay including the big boys.

The best part of the job nowadays is emptying the machines which is obviously a great shame for sports bettors.

[redarmi]

It pisses me off no end as someone who has spent equal amounts of time on both sides of the counter and has tried to be as fair as possible.  The big UK firms just seem to take every opportunity they can to take a shot.  An example - I have often tried to bet a football team at a coupon price and been told the price has gone and have also seen the signs up by the coupon dispenser saying Porto now 11/10 when the coupon price is 6/4.  Fair enough.  I have never heard of a regular punter going into a Ladbrokes shop to put his coupon on and having been told "Sporting Lisbon are now 2/1 sir not the 6/4 listed as we have seen a lot of money for Porto"  It doesn't happen they just scalp both sides.

[doubleup]

I have worked in the betting shop and phone betting game for 25 years and its really hard to compete paying 15% gross profits tax compared to the pittance that online operators pay including the big boys.

Bet 365 seem to manage to compete ok. 

[gouty]

Good point. I just looked at them. I never realised they were bigger online than hills and lads combined.

[gouty]

But when you look closer the profit margins are very different between offshore and UK based businesses for 2012.

Hills 1.276 bn turnover generates 277m profit.

Bet 365 1.24 bn t/o generates 111m profit.

Good job Bet 365 does not have shareholders or they would be offshore pretty quick?

[doubleup]

But when you look closer the profit margins are very different between offshore and UK based businesses for 2012.

Hills 1.276 bn turnover generates 277m profit.

Bet 365 1.24 bn t/o generates 111m profit.

Good job Bet 365 does not have shareholders or they would be offshore pretty quick?

isn't profit before tax?  ie the tax situation is irrelevant to these figures?

[gouty]

It's before corporation tax not 15% betting duty which paid monthly throughout the year.

[doubleup]

where did you get these figures?  If they are profit after expenses, there are loads of other factors at play not just betting duty. 

[gouty]

I agree there are lots of factors, but paying a gross profits duty is massive especially if they are the biggest operator in online sports betting amongst bookmakers.

365 figs from guardian article on google search

Hills from their own shareholders dividend report on google search.

[The Camel]

I had a tip for a VERY live horse the week before I came to Vegas.

Hills were top price 11/1.

I was told to back it as near to the first show as possible, so I waited til the race at the meeting was off before asking for £250 at 11s.

The guy in the shop was on to the traders for ages, and while he waited the first show came through 7/1.. quickly followed by 6/1, 5/1, 9/2.

It was 4/1 when I got my answer...

"Yes, that bet is fine"

What the actual fuck?

Honestly thought I was a million to get more than £10 at 11/1.

I guess it purely depends who happens to be working in the trading room at the time the bet comes through.

[redarmi]

I guess it purely depends who happens to be working in the trading room at the time the bet comes through.

I think this is a very important point actually.  A lot of this is about the lowest common denominator so your experience of a firm is equivalent to their worst trader.  a lot of traders are decent enough fellas and want to be fair but there is a lot of pressure and sometimes they just can't afford to lay bets if they want to keep on the right side of the accountants that run the places these days.

[doubleup]

I agree there are lots of factors, but paying a gross profits duty is massive especially if they are the biggest operator in online sports betting amongst bookmakers.

365 figs from guardian article on google search

Hills from their own shareholders dividend report on google search.

we'll have to disagree - I think that pinnacle's profit as a % of turnover would be far lower than either of the firms, so I don't think that it is a valid figure in relation to the discussion.

[redarmi]

But when you look closer the profit margins are very different between offshore and UK based businesses for 2012.

Hills 1.276 bn turnover generates 277m profit.

Bet 365 1.24 bn t/o generates 111m profit.

Good job Bet 365 does not have shareholders or they would be offshore pretty quick?

There simply has to be something wrong with those Hills figures.  That is a margin of 20%+.  In all my years in the betting business I have only ever seen one business with those kind of margins and they got most of their business from shops in Italy where the average bet was an 8 team accumulator.  I find it pretty hard to believe Hills make those kind of margins based on normal margin calculations.  Maybe some one off profits or something?