new poker site

[AlexMartin]

hi blondes,

Myself and a few like-minder buddies have come up with an interesting idea. I would love to get your feedback, either here or on 2+2.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/56/medium-stakes-pl-nl/new-poker-site-critics-welcome-1354408/#post39447098

The basic premise is that we, as poker players, have been paying through the teeth for far too long to play a game we all love, enjoy and (some of you lucky gits) make money from.

I would really like your participation in giving any feedback on the concept of rake-free poker; any concerns and possible thoughts on what might be attractive to you as a poker site user.

thanks a lot! alex

[aaron1867]

I'm not sure what your idea is? Where is the profitability going to come from?

Are we really paying through our teeth? Are you going to guarantee tournaments like stars? I don't think so.

[Boba Fett]

Aside from getting a big enough group of players to support it to make all the games worth playing, I guess the main issue would be the security of the game and the safety of player funds.  I would be worried that a rake-free site wouldnt be making enough money to invest in this as well as develop good software.

[kinboshi]

There are a number of key issues with launching a sites like this. Traffic acquisition being one. Many of the larger sites struggle to attract enough numbers to generate profit from poker and they have the benefit of being household names with large marketing budgets.

Then there's the software. Unless you were to run on an existing network such as ipoker you have the setup, development and maintenance costs that aren't insubstantial. Obviously running on ipoker or similar would involve a rake being taken from players for ipoker's cut before you look at your share. 

You haven't mentioned how your revenue will be generated, and a lot of existing operators rely extensively on cross-selling their other services such as sports-book and casino to generate enough revenue to cover the costs of acquisition of poker players - and these are sites that take rake.

Of course, just because an idea is novel doesn't make it wrong. There are plenty of poker sites out there getting it very wrong, and so doing it differently to them could well be a good thing. Taking on Stars is another level above that though I reckon.

[nirvana]

How many have you had ?

[GreekStein]

Are we really paying through our teeth? Are you going to guarantee tournaments like stars? I don't think so.

Rake is pretty unreasonable everywhere imo.

[kinboshi]

Are we really paying through our teeth? Are you going to guarantee tournaments like stars? I don't think so.

Rake is pretty unreasonable everywhere imo.

It might be an issue for pros, but I'm not sure it's a massive factor for recs, and also without the rake how do the poker sites make their revenue?  Is there an alternative model for generating revenue for poker sites?

[MC]

Are we really paying through our teeth? Are you going to guarantee tournaments like stars? I don't think so.

Rake is pretty unreasonable everywhere imo.

It might be an issue for pros, but I'm not sure it's a massive factor for recs, and also without the rake how do the poker sites make their revenue?  Is there an alternative model for generating revenue for poker sites?

Advertising has always been talked about in regards to rake free poker. Ie. having the Pepsi logo on the felt or whatever.

[outragous76]

Would it affect traffic as there would be no "rake back pros"?  - or am I missing the point that a breakeven player instantly becomes a 5% ROI player?

[kinboshi]

Are we really paying through our teeth? Are you going to guarantee tournaments like stars? I don't think so.

Rake is pretty unreasonable everywhere imo.

It might be an issue for pros, but I'm not sure it's a massive factor for recs, and also without the rake how do the poker sites make their revenue?  Is there an alternative model for generating revenue for poker sites?

Advertising has always been talked about in regards to rake free poker. Ie. having the Pepsi logo on the felt or whatever.

Advertising would 'help', but not sure it'd generate the level of revenue that rake does - but definitely something that could supplement rake, or help reduce it for those who 'opt in' to advertising.

[kinboshi]

Coincidently, saw this today: http://pokerfuse.com/news/media-and-software/ultimate-poker-vip-program-to-use-winner-takes-all-for-rake-attribution-22-07/

I'm not sure how many (or if any) recs know exactly how the rake works on the poker sites they play on.  I'd assume a lot of the pros do though, but do they consider rake attribution as a key factor for the site(s) they play on?  Do the poker sites care that much about the pros (removing Stars from the equation)?

[theprawnidentity]

Coincidently, saw this today: http://pokerfuse.com/news/media-and-software/ultimate-poker-vip-program-to-use-winner-takes-all-for-rake-attribution-22-07/

I'm not sure how many (or if any) recs know exactly how the rake works on the poker sites they play on.  I'd assume a lot of the pros do though, but do they consider rake attribution as a key factor for the site(s) they play on?  Do the poker sites care that much about the pros (removing Stars from the equation)?

As the pros are a small part of the market, the answer is more than likely is:             NO.

[DaveShoelace]

Trustworthiness is the biggest issue right off the bat. Savvy poker players will want to know the business model, so you can't keep that under wraps forever. You can't hide it, because people will want to know what is in it for you to trust you. I don't think you are going to get anything valuable in terms of community response or market research by asking if people don't want to pay rake, of course they don't. Tell people your business model, it's rare people steal ideas and few people want to put the work in anyway, you stand a much better chance of gaining interest and momentum by planting your flag in the ground early.

Then the biggy long term is how much financial clout you have and how good is the software. If you want to compete with Stars you need brilliant software and the players need to be confident that you are liquid enough to withstand a big financial hit.

Also while I am sure that a genuinely good solution to overpriced rake will be well received by all, I don't think it is of any real concern to recreational players. Everyone wants to know what you are doing to get more new players to the table and it's likely you would have to first explain what rake is to them to sell the benefits of this. Really as tomsom87 just said, rake is only of primary concern to a small, but vocal, minority.

[AndrewT]

Rake-free poker has been done before - WSEX - it was [  ] very successful.

Pro players see rake as some terrible tax which is stealing money from their pockets - but that's what funds advertising and marketing campaigns to bring in new players.

Recs mostly don't care about rake, many of them don't even notice it.

[DesD]

The challenge of getting this off the ground would be significant Alex. 

The average rec player that visits a site 3 or 4 times a month will have no awareness of your product (and you'll need thousands of them), while you'll have little to offer (liquidity or guarantee wise) the players that rake $300 to $30k+ per month.

To stand a fighting chance, you'd need a pretty large marketing budget to start.  To secure that you'll need investors who will want to see a profit on their money and many will view a non traditional revenue model as risky. 

I'd be the last to say anything is impossible, but I don't think rake free on its own is a strong enough USP to get you 12 months down the road.