Grumpy bloke on Grumpy blokes......

[tikay]

Mr Neil Channing wrote a rather interesting blog recently.

It can be found on his website, which I'm sure you are all familiar with. Out of respect to our Sponsor, I will not link to it, but I will reproduce the article.

Please remember, play most of your your online poker on DTD.

More.....

[tikay]

The Blog was posted 2 weeks ago, & attracted some negative feedback, which Neil subsequently addressed as follows.....


Hi all,
 
I've been back from Vegas for a few days now and so far I only managed one blog about the WSOP. It doesn't mention anything about how I was doing, how the Brits were going early on or the amazing day when Barny got his much deserved bracelet, but it seems to have got more attention than any blog I've ever written. I'm pleased because it was something that had been building up inside for a while.
 
I just want to pint out a few things that I wasn't really saying, as some people, who probably didn't really read it, seem to have misunderstood.
 
I certainly don't condone the berating of players for the way they play. I am certainly aware that people do berate and I also note that this is often done by miserable, older players. I wish they would not do that, but that is not what I was writing about. Obviously professionals who berate need to stop doing that.
 
I certainly would prefer all professionals to remove the headphones, quit with the iPad and be prepared to chat to other players. I wasn't talking about that though. I am aware though that I have a small internet addiction and I like to use the iPhone while playing. I am not being a hypocrite and I'm not saying all players, even those who are painfully shy, should be forced to chat away at the table.
 
I am certainly aware that some of the grumpiest and rudest players are older players, often recreational and often, by definition, losing. While the game would be more fun if those people were happier, I can understand them not skipping for joy and I wasn't writing about them.
 
I am simply saying that if you are, or if you aspire to be, or think you may be a professional poker player and you are willing and able to speak at the table, then please make sure that you attempt to speak to ALL players and not simply to those who fit into your peer group.
 
That is it, not too hard to understand I hope.
 
Thanks for reading.
 
nc
 

[tikay]

...and the Blog itself went like this.....


Fairly early on in this WSOP I was coming back to the room to get my head down after another late-in-the-day elimination. I got into the elevator at the second floor to find it crammed full of people who had entered via the lobby. The fact that they were poker players was not a complete shock as our place is full of these creatures, but it was surprising given that the day's event had forty minutes to go before bagging-up time.
 
I decided to squeeze in rather than wait for the next one and so found myself two inches away from one guy's nose. The guy to my left was telling the guy to my right how several of the passengers had just been out to celebrate the man close to my nose winning the 'Millionaire Maker' bracelet event for $1.2 million.
 
I had about 22 seconds to say something before my floor and I went with...
 
"Congratulations, that's amazing, you must be really excited, that is some achievement."
 
Nobody reacted in any way to my words. The man with his nose close to mine didn't even flicker or flinch and none of the other passengers said a word. Four or five seconds passed and the man on my left told the man on my right that they once played in the Main Event. I then remembered that I'd played the man on my right a couple of times in cash games and also in a couple of WSOP events. None of these games of chance had worked out for this fella and I suspect he may not be too keen on me. His millionaire friend I have never met.
 
Twenty seconds later I said...
 
"Lovely talking to you guys, have a great night."
 
Further tumbleweeds tumbled and I went to bed.
 
I was pretty shocked. My motives for speaking that night were purely as another human being - who has some experience of what the guy close to my nose was experiencing - wanting to say something nice, as well as an Englishman who doesn't really do quiet moments, wanting to fill a silence. I was happy and excited for the guy. I didn't mean it sarcastically, I didn't want staking, I wasn't trying to borrow money, and there was no way you could interpret it as anything other than a person trying to be friendly.
 
They looked through me like I didn't exist. The way they ignored me showed total disdain but it was also like I was invisible or speaking in Swahili. I was shaken.
 
A few days before my elevator ride I was playing one of the $1,000 events. It was the one with a re-entry option. My first table started at 11 a.m. and it was full of nice people with regular jobs and lives who had decided to give it a go and try and become a world champion by playing a game they enjoy. Several of them may never win any form of poker tournament, but they didn't really care and they were here to have fun.
 
After I bust from my lovely first table by doing something quite risky that may well have worked on another day, I decided to re-enter.
 
The people who get up to play at 4 p.m. include a large number of 'professionals' - and I really use the term loosely - who can just about drag themselves out of bed mid-afternoon. My new table was full of self-proclaimed professionals - although many have probably not had five winning years - who were full of themselves.
 
It was like they were having a competition to see who could be the biggest arsehole.
 
They all spoke very loudly, mostly across each other, and they rarely paused to listen to what the others were saying. They talked about "morons" limping and not three-betting A-J in the cut-off and not knowing to 3/5 with an A-Q on the button. They discussed staking and make-up and games with large buy-ins; they talked about people I know of through poker websites but have never met; they spoke loudly about ranges and fold equity; and they went on and on about themselves and how fucking great they were.
 
There were two kindly looking older guys on the table. They didn't talk at all. They weren't too good at poker and they did some of the things that the other people said only morons would do. It was going to be hard for them to join in the conversation; they probably had no idea who the people I'd heard of from poker websites were, and they almost certainly had no idea what 3/5 or make-up meant, or what would constitute a three-bet shoving range.
 
They probably had good stuff to add to any conversation. They looked like they had lived a bit: they probably had kids and grandkids; they may have started and built up a business; they may be very successful; maybe they had taught to a new generation; perhaps they'd even fought for their country. I never got to find out. They were both at the other end of the table and I couldn't get to talk to them as the oaf next to me just wouldn't stop boasting in a shouty way.
 
Nobody ever spoke to the kindly old gentlemen. They never spoke. They couldn't talk to each other as the two guys in between them wouldn't shut up about some guys only referenced by their online games and how sick they were. After one hand I was reminded that the nice old men were there. A discussion about the hand involved much debate about the strength of one of the older men's 4x open. It was discussed totally as if they weren't even there and they couldn't understand English. Two different people openly laughed at the play of one of the kindly old gentlemen.
 
I busted that tournament. I was angry and disgusted.
 
Obviously the behaviour that day is very bad for the future of poker. After I got out of the lift I realised that the behaviour exists slightly outside of poker and that it may be damaging to the future of society.
 
Is it really the case that people of different generations simply cannot communicate and does it mean that in the future we just should not even try?
 
Have the young really got nothing to learn from their elders?
 
Is this a future I can look forward to as I enter old age?
 
In between worrying about these issues I played a bunch of $1,500 and $1,000 WSOP events. I avoided all the events of $2,500 and over. They seemed to be full of the people I saw at that table and in the lift. They didn't look much fun. The numbers were down in those events and they did well in the smaller events. I enjoyed the tables I played on.
 
I'm pretty sure my words are going to fall on deaf ears and the behaviour I witnessed will continue. A certain clique of players absolutely never engage with any player outside of the clique while at the table. That's fine. They will soon all be playing events just amongst themselves and they'll find their society begins to cannibalise itself. They will get what they deserve.
 
I spent quite a bit of time attempting to do something about the things that were upsetting me. I made a bunch of Tweets and wrote some things. Some people sneered. I don't think people should educate at the table and I definitely think berating others for playing badly is terrible for poker, bad for the profit of all players at the table, and just not a very nice thing for a human being to do to another human being. I also understand that some people are just shy and they want to put on their headphones and play Open-Face Chinese. Obviously I can't see why they wouldn't rather try a little harder to win and focus on the game, but they've paid their money and if they only want to focus forty percent on the game then that is up to them.
 
People who thought I was merely talking about those things got me wrong. I was trying to address a very specific thing I saw that upset me. I would like it if the practice of excluding recreational players from the conversation by talking in a way that they can't join in or by simply refusing to engage with them in any way would stop.
 
I believe the practice is taking the fun out of the game for many people and it is damaging the future of poker. That is it, in a nutshell, simples.
 
I didn't cash too many of my early events but I had fun and I had some shots. None of the Brits really did any good in those early weeks.
 
Plenty of time though. I was pretty sure we could come back strong...

[smurf]

Only come across this once at lower levels (with the exception of the odd comments) some guy constantly telling others their bet was too small, too big, how could you not raise etc. it led to very little chat at the table. Then the player to my left won a pot from him and as he just started to waffle on about the play the quiet player to my left said quite loudly some thing along the lines of " I don't care what you think, I don't want to know what you think, I paid my entry and I will play how I want" then started chatting to some one else.
That should have been the end of it but of course the 'expert' just got worse, bad atmosphere developed and it totally took the enjoyment out of it.  So if its generally a lot worse at higher stakes then its probably no great loss that I've never managed to play one.

[Steve Swift]

Don't you just love to read superb writing. TY  Mr C

[FUN4FRASER]

If you recall on the WSOP thread there was a podcast interview with Neil where he mentioned the same things.

I applauded him then and replicate those thoughts now.

If you are a poker player it shouldnt stop you from having normal human social skills and being  polite to others either at or away from the table .                                                                                                                                    
Great  Stuff....Keep your thoughts coming sir  

[tikay]

Don't you just love to read superb writing. TY  Mr C

Yup.

We don't see enough writing of that calibre in the poker fraternity.

Interestingly, he writes exactly as he speaks, & I think that is the key to good writing.

It also helps to have pride & care in what we write.

[SuuPRlim]

It is, as  I'm sure Neil is perfectly aware, a matter of EGO, and the ironic thing about this is the less "justified" the perception of someones EGO is (note I say perception, I think that an ego in itself is an entirely perceptive thing) then the more forcefully it's attempts to justify it to unknown people is.

In a nutshell a lot of these guys Neil was referring to who played on that second table have either had one big result to propel them to this place, orbeen staked into games above their previous results/level of ability, sure they are good players but they haven't really "ground it up", in a sense that an iconic pro and top of their industry face like Moorman or Gboro have done, so they feel that the respect of their peers and those playing at their level is always under question. "Yeah this guy won a WPT for $650k but I saw him make this terrible 4bet with A9." etc I've seen it many times when these online tourney guys sit down at a live table and just jostle for each others respect, the thought of the other going to his mates "played with X today he was a sicko" is now more important than anything else.

A few good examples of these things from my experiences;

1) about 3 yrs ago I'd been on my first high(ish) stakes adventure on the internet and was winning/losing thousands per day, I sat down in a £1/£2 NL game (remember I look very young) and everyone thought I was just some fresh faced wet behind the ears kid (they were not too far wrong lol) I'm pretty sure no-one thought "wow this guy is defo terrible" but i knew no-one thought "wow this guy is a high stakes wizz I am very scared now he's sat down" I was kinda steaming, LIKE HOW DO THESE PEOPLE NOT KNOW I'M A HIGH STAKES SICKO. I ended up playing terribly and dusting it all off cos I was so determined to show everyone how good I was. The level of arrogance you need to genuinely think a few guys enjoying an evening of cards should be awe-struck at your arrival is frightening.

Next day I had a good long hard look at myself and have never ever been like that since, play every game and every person on the merits of that situation... Ego's are very expensive I'd rather spend my money on strippers.

2) I played a tournament in europe, and I was sat very quietly on this table (I was pretty hungover and wasn't being particularly social) there were two guys who I actually did recognise as online tournament players, both very successful, they were talking about winning this much, losing that much money etc was all very crass, I did not get involved until a spot to make a joke cropped up which I couldn't refuse. I created a small moment of silence as they both loooked at me (straining to try figure out if they knew my online screen name) realised they didn't and got on with it, i felt quite exlcuded but didn't really care.

Later on that day a guy who'd I'd been playing in the cash games all week (we'd been playing very big) sat opposite me, we'd been bantering about at the tables all week and continued here. HE punted his stack off attracting all sorts of hungry looks from the "pro's" he then asked me if I'd like to start a game with him as soon as I busted (ty for the confidence ) "Ok, 100/100 NO-ONE quits till I get EVEN" I said "Can't promise that I've gotta fly home tomorrow" (jokingly) the two guys turn to me and start in effect berating that guy saying what a life i had to be playing him, how much is he losing this week? Is he as bad as he looks? and so on and the guy is still in fucking ear-shot?! I mean are these guys real??? Just zero social intelligence, do they think that people (irrespective of their backgrounds) who listen to them talk are impressed?!? I assume they must. Thank god you have poker boys.

3) I was playing a cash game in Vegas a cpl of years ago and a tall black guy sat next to me, seemed nice enough, friendly but not a huge presence, funny but not hysterical, sat kinda awkward couldn't ruffle chips that well (lol) I was chatting to him mostly about soccer (I know, fkn yanks!) for the time i was sat next to him. As I played a few hands with him it was clear he was a very good player. As the hours rolled by I started to wonder if he wasn't just INCREDIBLEY GOOD but the best guy I'd ever played, or was just running well. He was humble, un-assuming and after pot I couldn't help but wonder if I'd just been totally owned (even the pots I'd won) Turns out his name is Tony Gregg and he prolly makes $15m a year from poker. Makes you wanna lol at the guys in tournaments losing their heads because a 53yr-old recreational player from Washington doesn't seem to give a fuck that he's won 3 triple crowns.

Like I said on another thread yesterday it isn't about "keeping people playing so we can make more money" or "not educating them so they don;t get better" it's about understand WHY a person has chosen, on a day/evening he could be doing a huge number of different things, to be sat there playing cards with you, if you wanna beat someone at a game it helps to understand why they are playing. Also boasting/showing off/be-littling others ot boost your own ego is the sort of thing ****'s do (insert whichever word you'd like) so if are not a **** then you shouldn't do it, as in any enviroment it's classless and makes you look like a tool.

Any "pro" player who doesn't think that it's his responsibility to have positive affect of the environment of a poker game is deluded, and is sucking the soul out of people who act properly by letting them pay the "rake" on their behalf.

[claypole]

You should write more. Great post Dave

[Steve Swift]

Just gets better.

It seems to be vogue at present for Pro's to be addressing this issue and my feelings are it will slowly filter through and that can only be a good thing.  Can't tell you the amount of times I have wanted to stick a couple of hundred quid on a cash table to have a bit of fun but shy away from it for all the reasons mentioned in the superb writing above.

[Killer River]

Don't you just love to read superb writing. TY  Mr C

Great read, Its unreal how so many people act like this just so rude.

"I'm pretty sure my words are going to fall on deaf ears and the behaviour I witnessed will continue. A certain clique of players absolutely never engage with any player outside of the clique while at the table. That's fine. They will soon all be playing events just amongst themselves and they'll find their society begins to cannibalise itself. They will get what they deserve."

Could be very true!

[Tal]

Not sure I agree with all of that, SuuPRlim, but it's a heck of a persuasive piece of writing. Wp, sir.

[outragous76]

I'm going to have to be the antidote to all this pros gotta be a pro love fest, because to be quite frank its getting painful to listen to

1. Every pro has had bad days, what if you caught them on a bad day?

2. I have NEVER seen a pro get stacked in a 500+ bb pot to a tiny out shot, ............. laugh, shrug it off and reload, I've seen plenty recs do it  thou

3. I have seen plenty of the UK best "pros" lose it (to varying degrees) at the table

4. I have seen plenty UK pros berate the "fish" on twitter (to varying degrees and with "humour" to mask it)

5.

6.

7.

//

101.

Keep filling in the numbers yourselves


There is no such thing as this "pro" people keep speaking of. There are probably less than 10 in the UK I can even think of, non of whom I've played with and maybe, just maybe, they have had bad days too.

We get it, us recs turn up and lose, whilst the pros laugh and giggle behind our backs, whilst smooching us at the table! Not sure which reality I prefer to be honest

[SuuPRlim]

lets put it in a different context Guy.


You're a dentist, I need my teeth seeing to so I make an appointment. I turn up to your surgery, first thing you do is berate me for not brushing my teeth properly, tell im a moron cos my teeth are a bit ropey. We then sit there in silence as you do the surgery, occasionally breaking the silence to have a laugh with the nurse about how shit I am at brushing my teeth. After it's all said I done I owe you £69 and I'm not feeling too good about myself. Won't be rushing back.

It's just all EGO, it's a behavioral instinct as old as time pick someone weaker than you in a certain enviroment and use your superiority over them to make yourself feel better. If you have adequate respect for the person and enough confidence in yourself then you prolly won't do this stuff.

[outragous76]

Dave, I totally agree with the principal of what is being said, but its never going to happen.

I agree that pros could improve their own situation, but lets not pretend that this is going to change overnight because it wont. Therefore lets stop talking about this utopia which simple doesn't exist and never will.