Grumpy bloke on Grumpy blokes......

[SuuPRlim]

no you're right it'll never change because it isn't a poker problem, it's a problem with peoples personalities

[Bad Beat]

 I have a bit of a busy day so I can't get involved in a long discussion right now. I just wanted to say thanks for the kind words and to ask a question...

 Why do people keep misunderstanding and misrepresenting what I am saying?

 Of course it would be great if people never berated.

 Of course it would be great if people were always nice to each other.

 Of course it would be nice if nobody ever educated at the table.

 Of course it would be better if people took off their headphones and turned off their iPads to focus on the game.

 That is not what I was writing about though.

 What I asked to happen in my writing is surely not any great utopia which is impossible to achieve.

 What I wrote about is not kissing-up to the fish.

 All I asked was this...

  "if you are, or if you aspire to be, or think you may be a professional poker player and you are willing and able to speak at the table, then please make sure that you attempt to speak to ALL players and not simply to those who fit into your peer group".

 That was it. Nothing more, nothing less.

 Is it really that hard to understand and impossible to achieve?

[Marky147]

Someone having a bad day, posting a dig at fish, or being 1 outed for a massive pot and having a paddy isn't what the posts are talking about though?

Little groups trying to see who can do the best impression of rainman, whilst being generally obnoxious, and trying to make the experience as uncomfortable as possible for everyone bar their little clique is.

It's obviously not going to change overnight, it might not change at all unless poker sites start throwing life skills training about too

I don't mind reading a good old rant about it, especially when it's so well written. Also, if people don't keep banging on about it things might get worse, and that would be most annoying.

I don't play much live anymore for various reasons, but the less ignorant trolls I play with when I do, the better the experience is

[outragous76]

Neil

Im not misinterpreting what you are saying, you have expanded your discussion further in the follow up, I am taking that point further.

And Lil D hits it on the head again, its not a poker problem, its  a life problem.

But there are 2 things being discussed.

Firstly the "young head phoned "pro"". Well he is in a clique. Cliques exist and always have, its a way of life. People feel both comfortable and empowered in their clique. That's why they have them. So maybe these young guys are just in a clique. But there are lots of other cliques at poker tables too, some of which "well known pros" are happily formed in, but sits outside your current point of view about poker. It doesn't make them any less welcoming, no matter how much time they spend talking to recs'. They "clique up" when it suits them too. That's why its empowering (to them)

The 2nd point is just the general berating (call it what you like). It will never go away either. I have (knowingly) wound up several old school pros to the point of them losing it (I don't do it (knowingly) anymore). So are they not good professionals? Or having a bad day? What should I think of them?

[DungBeetle]

Personally I think the pro v rec thing is vastly over played.  Many of the bad manners occur because a supposed "pro" is slowly realising that he isn't going to be able to make a living at the game and is simply an unemployed bloke who plays cards for too many hours a day, and every day that goes past makes him more and more unemployable.

[Bad Beat]

 Firstly I didn't mean to expand my point, I am simply responding to all the people who have reacted by saying...

 I saw that Neil Channing using his iPhone in a tournament, why is he saying we can't use them? I am not and I did not. Ideally it would be better for the game if everyone stopped using iPhones/iPads/headphones etc but I stress again I did not want to get into that debate.

 I played with that Neil Channing once and he didn't speak to anyone. So much for him trying to make us all talk. I totally accept that some people are very shy and people have days or parts of a tournament when they don't feel like talking. I have no problem with that, although I would suggest that the games would be better if people generally talk more.

 I played with that Neil Channing and he was really grumpy. Poker is an annoying and frustrating game and people can be very rude to others from time to time. Sometimes that stuff makes me grumpy. Ideally people would never be grumpy but I can't make that happen by writing a blog.

 I get it that cliques exist and I get it that some "big name pro" poker players are so far up their own arsehole that they don't speak to anyone else, but luckily there are very few of them. I could have written a blog having a go at those who are like that but I chose not to.

 What I have seen hundreds of in the last couple of years is players who will only ever engage with people who are part of their clique and this is something I believe can damage the game.

 Am I really being totally unrealistic to campaign for that to stop?

 Why are some people so angry with me for raising this?

 Several people have called me a hypocrite, the man who inspired me to write the blog must have recognised himself there as he started laying into me on Twitter and defended his right to behave as badly as he wants and questioned whether players behaving better will have any positive effect on the game. Let me say that again...he really believes that unless I can present him with unequivocal evidence that what he is doing is damaging the game then he defends his right to continue behaving like an arse.

 Another man who claims to have played with me called me a c*** for mentioning any of this.

 meanwhile I have had over 200 people contact me to say that this stuff is among the reasons they don't play anymore.

[millidonk]

I wrote a reply, then saw this had been posted..

no you're right it'll never change because it isn't a poker problem, it's a problem with peoples personalities

One thing I would say though instead of sitting there, getting angry about the situation and writing something afterwards next time actively try and do something. Talk louder than the clique and include the older guys, they might actually turn out to be as arrogant as the others in which case you end up putting your headphones on, you might end up having a real nice conversation with them just by yourself or maybe the other guys will even get involved themselves in a none 3b/5b conversation or they might get sick of listening to you and all put their own headphones on. Who knows? I don't think this would ever be completely solved but nor do I think it is something that will rectify itself so, we must take a stand. FREEEEEEEEEEEDOM. Sorry for some reason Mel Gibson started pouring through me there.

Ref the guys in the lift. A few yanks have told me everything I say sounds sarcastic, so it could be an English thing. "oh well done, you just won a million dollars. Congratulations you".

[owen1923]

As recreational player I recognise what Neil is saying and it is nothing to do with being a pro, you get the same idiots in all games, no matter what level you are playing.

These people simply don't see the damage they do to the game, being unable to see beyond the opinion they hold of themselves,  But discouraging a once a week player from continuing to participate in simple terms removes  52 customers from what should be considered your 'market' a year.

The idiots don't need to entertain, simply be civil,

[outragous76]

Neil

Im sure (and I hope) that my points don't in anyway come across as towards you personally like some people look like they have. It certainly isn't my intention.

I think its fine that you raise it as an issue, and great if it changes. But honestly, I don't think it will much, and the problem is you can never account for that "off day" because we are all human, and that off day might just be the day where a pro puts off a rec for life. That's all

[DungBeetle]

"Why are some people so angry with me for raising this?"

Because the people getting angry don't have the social skills.  Getting these people to talk to an older social group about any subject other than poker would be like watching a slow motion car crash.  

Think Frank Lampard's "super goals" advert for the Sun about 5 years ago.

[Bad Beat]

 all of those other things (being friendly, never educating, never berating, not being grumpy) can go wrong on an "off-day" and it is impossible for the whole world to be nice all the time.

 Should it really be so hard that?...


 if you are, or if you aspire to be, or think you may be a professional poker player and you are willing and able to speak at the table, then please make sure that you attempt to speak to ALL players and not simply to those who fit into your peer group.

 Let me try and keep to this one small battle that might be winnable. That is why I don't want people widening it out.

[VBlue]

Dave, I totally agree with the principal of what is being said, but its never going to happen.

I agree that pros could improve their own situation, but lets not pretend that this is going to change overnight because it wont. Therefore lets stop talking about this utopia which simple doesn't exist and never will.

Yeah - moaners gonna moan, etc.  However, if we don't talk about and promote change it will never happen.  I'm sure a lot of much more seemingly insurmountable problems have been overcome than getting poker players to be inclusive rather than exclusive when they talk to each other at a table.

[kinboshi]

As recreational player I recognise what Neil is saying and it is nothing to do with being a pro, you get the same idiots in all games, no matter what level you are playing.

These people simply don't see the damage they do to the game, being unable to see beyond the opinion they hold of themselves,  But discouraging a once a week player from continuing to participate in simple terms removes  52 customers from what should be considered your 'market' a year.

The idiots don't need to entertain, simply be civil,

This.  The problem is that many are so much in their 'bubble' that they lack any empathy with others outside it who are sat at their table.  They are basically unaware how others perceive them - except for their immediate peers - who of course act in the same way.

all of those other things (being friendly, never educating, never berating, not being grumpy) can go wrong on an "off-day" and it is impossible for the whole world to be nice all the time.

 Should it really be so hard that?...

 if you are, or if you aspire to be, or think you may be a professional poker player and you are willing and able to speak at the table, then please make sure that you attempt to speak to ALL players and not simply to those who fit into your peer group.

 Let me try and keep to this one small battle that might be winnable. That is why I don't want people widening it out.

I think some will need lessons.  A Mr Channing's Finishing School for (Socially Inept) Poker Players...

[gouty]

I kinda like the pros keeping their hoods up and their cans on. Its their loss.

Neil is correct that some players are very rude talking over or even about another player they are sat next too with their buddy across the table. That's just plain ignorance.

On the other hand though its not a good idea to give away too much about yourself to players you have never played with before either. I have noticed good pros like to chat with everyone to glean info about whether a player has sattied in or bought in. Is the buy in out of their comfort zone? Are they local?  It's not so much that they are such friendly people, just getting info.

Now I would never tell them to stop being so nosey but they could show a bit more class about it.

[rfgqqabc]

Benny Chen took his seat on Saturday as an amateur with a dream. The restaurant manager from Prince Edward Island, Canada plunked down his $1,500 in flight A and failed to make it through. Flight B played out differently and his second entry ultimately resulted in a $1.1 million score that has changed his life forever. Chen earned his first WSOP bracelet on Tuesday and immediately provided the 2013 WSOP with a story it's going to repeat for years to come. He is the 26th player to earn a seven-figure score on the WSOP felt.

Although he is definitely not an amateur, pretty poor journalistic skills. I'm not sure you should call people out in blogs. However your overall point is well made and something I've long been an advocate for in both live and online games. I've been chatting a bit with the other players when my table numbers go down and been reminding some pros of their duty not to berate recreational players.Most know but can't help themselves, which is really sad. 

@Gouty, wouldn't one of the first questions you ask someone you got chatting to is "so, where are you from?" Hardly a ploy for information. I know what you mean but it sounds like another case of the poker professional literally never being able to be given credit by anyone. If I chat I'm being insincere and if I don't I'm ignorant.

I took my iPod to a game in Sheffield and one night used it for 3 songs, and the week after about 5. It made me happy to be able to chat. Always dreading the "so are you professional  question though".