Another ruling thread

[doubleup]

I do the same. Speeds the game up plus I don't ever call expecting to be giving the amount up so why put the correct amount in?

Why don't you just clearly say "call" if speed is paramount?

Frankly, I think that deliberately putting in the lower amount every time is an angle, because there is a chance that the dealer/opponent won't notice once in a while.

Last time I played in the Venetian deepstacks (couple of years ago) the dealers were very insistent that verbal allins and calls of allins were accompanied by a substantial amount of chips moved across the line to avoid any doubt.

[Boba Fett]

I do the same. Speeds the game up plus I don't ever call expecting to be giving the amount up so why put the correct amount in?

Yes, many do nowadays, but how much more time would it take to put the correct amount in George? Half a second?

It does only take half a second more so I don't see the big deal of throwing in 2 chips seperately to cover a call. In this case throw in a 1k and you have officially called, half a second later your throwing in the 5k chip and by this time I'd be expecting to see the good or bad news already. Less time is spent on this than people asking if they have been called when chips have been thrown in and waiting for the dealer to ask them to expose their hand

[tikay]

I do the same. Speeds the game up plus I don't ever call expecting to be giving the amount up so why put the correct amount in?

Yes, many do nowadays, but how much more time would it take to put the correct amount in George? Half a second?

Didn't you make a mistake in Vegas 2012 and get a time penalty (possibly even for exposing early?) 

I make LOTS of mistakes. But I try to avoid them.

The Time Penalty I got at Caesars Palace last year was for "discussing my hand" with the other guy in the hand. I said (jokingly) "you've got none of that", & that was sufficient to get me a one orbit penalty. The opponent was......Greek Jack, & we were just bantering, as you do when you meet a pal from home over there in Vegas. I accepted the penalty with good grace, & moved on. The TD was not incompetenent, though I do think he was wrong.   

And THAT is my point, we ought to be able to debate these things without resorting to such language. None of us saw what happened, so it is a little unfortunate & presumptious to label the TD, & DTD, in such terms.

DTD are far from perfect, ditto their TD's, but they ain't that bad, & I've rarely seen better anywhere in Europe. 

[tikay]

I do the same. Speeds the game up plus I don't ever call expecting to be giving the amount up so why put the correct amount in?

Why don't you just clearly say "call" if speed is paramount?

Frankly, I think that deliberately putting in the lower amount every time is an angle, because there is a chance that the dealer/opponent won't notice once in a while.

Last time I played in the Venetian deepstacks (couple of years ago) the dealers were very insistent that verbal allins and calls of allins were accompanied by a substantial amount of chips moved across the line to avoid any doubt.

Most rooms in Vegas insisted on that this year.

[kinboshi]

I barely ever call with the correct amount on river decisions like this. I usually just chuck a random chip in, and it always goes as a call whereby my opponent should show me their cards.

This is the kind of sh1t that really annoys me.  Why do you do that?  Do you throw a random amount at the supermarket checkout person and wait till she asks for the rest?  You know what the bet is, so just put in an amount that covers it or say call.

It seems to have been accepted as a convention in the last 3 or 4 years, from my observations. I'm not sure it is enshrined in the Rule Books though.

Personally, I do everything I can to avoid potential situations like this. The right or wrong is irrelevant. I just think it makes sense to avoid potential conflict.

The rights or wrongs in this thread dont really matter to me in the greater scheme of things. But it could not have happened to me, ever, as before opening my hand, I'd seek clarification of the "call", from the player &/or Dealer, even though some cynics may say I am effectively giving away my hand strength. 

OK, I'm an old fart, I just sit there enjoying myself, but I don't like this sort of potential conflict at the poker table, so I do my best to avoid it by ensuring these things cant generally happen to me. The PLAYERS are the cause of most of these misunderstandings, & the TD ends up geting the blame. It is all very well standing on our supposed rights, but surely we want the game to run smoothly, dont we?

Not sure the TD is getting the blame here. I think Dik9 made his point very well. But I think people would like to hear the reasoning behind the ruling.

That being said, I am of the general opinion that there is too much protection of people making mistakes.

Well, DTD & the TD have been described as "incompetent" over this matter by more than one poster. They were not present when it went off, of course, so cannot possibly know the precise circumstances. 

They are not incompetenent. They may have made a mistake, of course. That does not make them incompetent, it makes them human - just like the players.

We are amateur poker players, the TD's are professionals, so I'm not sure we are well-placed to suggest they are incompetenent. They may well have made a mistake here, of course. That is a quite different thing.

We can so easily point the finger at others, but try wearing those shoes. Being a TD these days must be a proper nightmare. 

I agree. If people disagree with something, why can't they "criticise the action, rather than the person"? 

If I make a mistake in my job (I know, hard to believe right?), I don't expect my boss/client to call me an idiot/ibecile/incompetent, I'd expect them to criticise my action - and hopefully give me the opportunity to explain myself and 'make-good' if necessary.

If I receive a service from someone and I think/know they've made a mistake, I don't start calling them names.  For example, a waiter brings the wrong meal to my table.  Do I call them an imbecile and an idiot, or do I simply point out that a mistake has been made and let them rectify it?  If someone who is known for being competent (e.g. the TDs at DTD) makes what I think is a mistake with a ruling, I'm not going to let rip at them with disparaging comments.  Instead, I'd question their decision and discuss it as adults.

Many in this thread have done exactly that, but some think the only way to be critical of something is to launch into personal insults. Wonder if this is a 'keyboard warrior' thing, or if they're as lacking in social skills in 'real-life' as well.

[MC]

I barely ever call with the correct amount on river decisions like this. I usually just chuck a random chip in, and it always goes as a call whereby my opponent should show me their cards.

This is the kind of sh1t that really annoys me.  Why do you do that?  Do you throw a random amount at the supermarket checkout person and wait till she asks for the rest?  You know what the bet is, so just put in an amount that covers it or say call.

I usually do it when I'm pretty sure I'm winning so I'm getting shipped the pot anyway. Like George said it speeds the game up generally, and doesn't exactly slow it down if I have to then put the correct amount in. If it annoys you, then tough titties; I won't be stopping doing it.

[tikay]

I barely ever call with the correct amount on river decisions like this. I usually just chuck a random chip in, and it always goes as a call whereby my opponent should show me their cards.

This is the kind of sh1t that really annoys me.  Why do you do that?  Do you throw a random amount at the supermarket checkout person and wait till she asks for the rest?  You know what the bet is, so just put in an amount that covers it or say call.

I usually do it when I'm pretty sure I'm winning so I'm getting shipped the pot anyway. Like George said it speeds the game up generally, and doesn't exactly slow it down if I have to then put the correct amount in. If it annoys you, then tough titties; I won't be stopping doing it.

It wont work though James, because he won't expose his hand until he has clarified the call is as intended.

[MC]

I barely ever call with the correct amount on river decisions like this. I usually just chuck a random chip in, and it always goes as a call whereby my opponent should show me their cards.

This is the kind of sh1t that really annoys me.  Why do you do that?  Do you throw a random amount at the supermarket checkout person and wait till she asks for the rest?  You know what the bet is, so just put in an amount that covers it or say call.

I usually do it when I'm pretty sure I'm winning so I'm getting shipped the pot anyway. Like George said it speeds the game up generally, and doesn't exactly slow it down if I have to then put the correct amount in. If it annoys you, then tough titties; I won't be stopping doing it.

It wont work though James, because he won't expose his hand until he has clarified the call is as intended.

Like JK mentioned, you just have to add a little nod to the dealer

[DTD-ACES]

Hi All

I have spoken to the TD who made this ruling.

Often there are situations that invoke rule 1.1 which means a decision can be made in the interests of fairness and integrity regardless off the technical rule and in this case it was decided the caller had made a genuine error but should get a penalty for it.

Our TD's run the biggest fields week in week out so make 100's of decisions a year, occasionally they like anyone can make a misjudgement.

No ruling should be made on intention however it is a players responsibility to know the size of the bet they are calling, once the 1500 had gone over the line this represents a call and should be completed to 6000.

I am proud to say considering the number of rulings we handle this is a rare occurrence.

Cheers


ACES

[tikay]

I barely ever call with the correct amount on river decisions like this. I usually just chuck a random chip in, and it always goes as a call whereby my opponent should show me their cards.

This is the kind of sh1t that really annoys me.  Why do you do that?  Do you throw a random amount at the supermarket checkout person and wait till she asks for the rest?  You know what the bet is, so just put in an amount that covers it or say call.

I usually do it when I'm pretty sure I'm winning so I'm getting shipped the pot anyway. Like George said it speeds the game up generally, and doesn't exactly slow it down if I have to then put the correct amount in. If it annoys you, then tough titties; I won't be stopping doing it.

It wont work though James, because he won't expose his hand until he has clarified the call is as intended.

Like JK mentioned, you just have to add a little nod to the dealer

Yup, 100% agree with that.

The Golden Rule I have in such situations is ALWAYS to make eye-contact with the Dealer, most especially in all-in spots. Once I get that, & the nod back, I'm happy to do whatever. On balance, I honestly don't think that, or I, slow the game down one iota. I can think of many un-necessary things that do though.....

If I have ANY action to make that could possibly be misconstrued, then I always wait until the Dealer is paying attention & he catches my eye. It just makes sense. It is like avoiding accidents in industry. They are costly, & dangerous. Time & money is saved over time if we make a little effort to avoid them. 

One problem that affects many is when Online grinders play live. Online & Live are completely different things. In one case, we have computer software "dealing", it NEVER makes mistakes. And there are NEVER "mistakes" Online, as the Software does not permit it.

When we play Live, not so much. The players, the dealers, the TD's, all of us, CAN make mistakes, & so we do.

A little tolerance to this fact of life & understanding of it would help. Live is not Online.

[doubleup]

I barely ever call with the correct amount on river decisions like this. I usually just chuck a random chip in, and it always goes as a call whereby my opponent should show me their cards.

This is the kind of sh1t that really annoys me.  Why do you do that?  Do you throw a random amount at the supermarket checkout person and wait till she asks for the rest?  You know what the bet is, so just put in an amount that covers it or say call.

I usually do it when I'm pretty sure I'm winning so I'm getting shipped the pot anyway. Like George said it speeds the game up generally, and doesn't exactly slow it down if I have to then put the correct amount in. If it annoys you, then tough titties; I won't be stopping doing it.

It wont work though James, because he won't expose his hand until he has clarified the call is as intended.

Like JK mentioned, you just have to add a little nod to the dealer

Also there's no way I'm betting a river without the nuts.

[I KNOW IT]

I do the same. Speeds the game up plus I don't ever call expecting to be giving the amount up so why put the correct amount in?

Why don't you just clearly say "call" if speed is paramount?

Frankly, I think that deliberately putting in the lower amount every time is an angle, because there is a chance that the dealer/opponent won't notice once in a while.

Last time I played in the Venetian deepstacks (couple of years ago) the dealers were very insistent that verbal allins and calls of allins were accompanied by a substantial amount of chips moved across the line to avoid any doubt.

Most rooms in Vegas insisted on that this year.

I have always insisted on it.

[tikay]

I do the same. Speeds the game up plus I don't ever call expecting to be giving the amount up so why put the correct amount in?

Why don't you just clearly say "call" if speed is paramount?

Frankly, I think that deliberately putting in the lower amount every time is an angle, because there is a chance that the dealer/opponent won't notice once in a while.

Last time I played in the Venetian deepstacks (couple of years ago) the dealers were very insistent that verbal allins and calls of allins were accompanied by a substantial amount of chips moved across the line to avoid any doubt.

Most rooms in Vegas insisted on that this year.

I have always insisted on it.

No surprise there, Craig, because it saves those difficult situations arising. Players can't just make up their own rules as they go along.

[MANTIS01]

I read this thread and took part in the discussion. From my perspective it was a normal general discussion about a ruling and I didn't get the sensation that people were slating DTD or calling them incompetent in the slightest. I do remember somebody saying everybody in the thread were drama queens which had me reaching for my handbag but nothing more than that. In any sport/game if the ref makes a controversial decision they will get some stick. I've been watching the Ashes and the umpires have been slated for the odd decision but that is just normal everyday life. There wasn't any actual abuse itt so I wonder if it's necessary to be so defensive about such things? If everybody has a discussion about a controversial decision and one or two say the word imcompetent then that is just normality, I mean perfection is a concept that's hard to achieve in real life and we all know that so I don't get the fuss.