Chopping it at Luton

[RED-DOG]

Well, Luton Grosvenor did us proud once again

The Grand Challenge was a great festival. There was a good range of buy-ins with long clocks and enough starting chips to allow for plenty of play

Competent dealers, helpful management and staff, nice surroundings, in fact, everything we needed to make it an outstanding week

What a shame the spectre of top-heavy prize structures and deals at the final table reared its ugly head yet again

Here are the simple facts

1: we have had poll after poll, and the result is always the same, the vast majority of players want a flatter payout structure

2: Grosvenor want to discourage deals at final tables

3: The only way to discourage deals is to flatten the payout structure

Come on guys, It's not rocket science

[TightEnd]

Please see the final four pages of this update thread of an excelelent discussion of many of the issues that Red Raises....

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=6174.0


I would have loved to have reported the precise details of the deal, and who gave up what to who, but was told to keep the details private by the Luton Grosvenor management.

It was fascinating to watch though

[Rod Paradise]

Surely it's even more dodgy if the deal is kept a secret as well??? You'd think they'd want everything open to show nothing untoward went on.

[12barblues]

Why do they have the right to censor this info?  Why do they want to?  I simply don't understand.

If I discover the facts I will post them.  They can't kick me out of a casino I don't frequent 

[ACE2M]

As a matter of interest the 500k tourney on will hill last night had a very flat payout structure with 55k for 1st and 42kish for 2nd and gradual steps down to 2k for 70th.

It was discussed at a couple of tables i was on and everyone hated it. Basically people were expecting to be having a shot at 200k ish for 1st prize.

The jist was, the flat structure suits the professional and very regular players a lot more than your casual player who likes to shoot for the big one now and again.

[M3boy]

Surely it's even more dodgy if the deal is kept a secret as well??? You'd think they'd want everything open to show nothing untoward went on.

The deal/deals is/are NOT secret . Its just that the Grovesener DO NOT do deals. As far as they are concerned, the payouts were as advertised and CANNOT be changed.

However, what goes on between the players remains the players business - if they decide to deal.

Hope that made sense

[Ironside]

the problem as i see it is poll after poll say we dont want top heavy payouts

but on the night people turn up and see a much reduced first prize and they complain

same people will do a deal 5 way

reason they complain then do a deal is there is much more money in the pot to deal with

if they aint payout so much to the lower placed finalists

its a no win situtation

people are drawn to the first place money

but then want to deal to get best share they can

no matter how flat the structure is you will get the deals being done

how often have you seen deals being down on a wet wednesday in xxxxx

with only £2000 in the pool and people squabbling over the odd £20

so with £50,000 in the pool no matter how flat people are always going to deal

part of being a good tourny player now has to include how to barter a good deal for yourself

unless more people take the Brian Wilson approach and say no deals then this will always occur

i know when i am in the money and everyone else has aggreed they want to deal i feel a little pressured into dealing and rarely put up a fight

[M3boy]

Good point re "pressure"

However, I  WILL NOT deal - have always said this and will remain by it.

You do, however, feel the wrath of the rest of the foe's who DO want to deal though - so be it

[Ironside]

another problem i have when deciding to deal is that most deals are done around 2-3 am instead of playing on till 4 am when you have a long drive home this means getting home around 4 am instead of during the rush hour big plus for the deal IMHO

[The Dundonian]

I will do a deal if I think it's in my favour, if one person on the table doesn't want to do a deal then I will vocally go along with that before any other decision.
You won't stop chopping though its integral to the game.

[ifm]

I don't understand the debate
If people do a deal then they have all agreed (and are presumably happy) so what is the problem?
If you personally don't want to deal then you won't, so again what is the problem?

[jammer]

re: top heavy payouts

Back in the day, I did some pretty heavy economic research on the national lottery, and why people play it.

Cut a long story short it, when you enter any situation with a target prize your brain misinterprets the odds of the game. First prize completely disproportionately dominates your interpretations of your expected income. Hence the larger it is the greater the perceived incentive to play, whether that makes rational sense or not. Even when you know the rational odds of such a game, you brain will still influence this expectation irrationally. Its just human nature. Big first prizes suck people in. (interestingly the exact same symptom in reverse is what incentivizes us to pay ridiculously overblown premiums for insurance).

Think about national lottery rollovers - ticket purchases rocket when the prize pool doubles, which is crazy, as its not going to make the slightest bit of difference to someone if they win 5million or 10million, its just a huuuge figure compared to their normal income either way. So why do they buy more tickets for the bigger prize? People being attracted to top heavy poker prize structures is the same affliction. The higher the first prize the greater perceived value.

As poker players play more, and hit the business end more, they can gradually rectify this situation - professional players hence start to realise a flatter structure makes far more sense to them and they overcome the hard-wired misinterpretations. To the casual player or someone who rarely makes the final table, this never happens and they continue to be subject to the irrational signals their unconcious mind is telling them.

If anyone's interested I can answer more details about it, but i'm already ranting on

[Heid]

I think as long as we have online qualifiers at the rate we do now, as well as people who win seats via sats, then deals will carry on.

If you can buy into a big game for 30 quid, and get a chance to play in a game you would never normally be able to afford to buy into, then if you get into a position where you can win a substantial amount of money, then you are going to be more likely to do a deal rather than potentially get into a position where you lose cash, through a bad beat.

The concept of the poker economy is a really interesting thing for me at the moment, and with the huge infusion of sponsored players and the number of online qualifiers MUST be having an effect on the number of deals done. Also I am sure the old hands at doing deals are rubbing their hands in glee at the influx of new arrivals who aren'tas adept at brokering as they are.

Interesting discussion.

[ACE2M]

i bought two tickets for the euromillions this week and i don't play the lottery.  

[jezza777]

If you can buy into a big game for 30 quid, and get a chance to play in a game you would never normally be able to afford to buy into, then if you get into a position where you can win a substantial amount of money, then you are going to be more likely to do a deal rather than potentially get into a position where you lose cash, through a bad beat.


I dont agree here Heid, If you pay £30 to get into a tournament then the most you can only lose £30. If you are talking deals then surley you are in the money and showing + on your investment.