Folding KK Pre

[WRJ23]

This is my first forum post.  Been meaning to get involved for a while, having been playing at DTD more and more recently, and loving the tournaments and coverage by Blonde Poker.

I thought I'd put a hand out there and see what you think.  Apologies if its a bit of a long post, I'm sure they'll hopefully get shorter as I get into the posts more often! The hand in question is folding KK pre.  I’m still about 50/50 in my mind whether it was the right fold, for different reasons which I will come to.

Firstly, I qualified to the UKIPT/Estrellas main event when it went to Marbella earlier this year on Poker Stars (1100 Euros).

To give the background, it was the biggest event I’d qualified to, and as such I knew (wrongly) that I probably wasn’t going to be as active as I would be in a smaller club game as, to be honest, I was concerned about being outplayed by the regulars who play this type of buy in.

Due to being told I didn’t need ID when I registered in the casino the night before, I turned up on the day to be told I did, so had to go back to the hotel and get my passport, meaning I didn’t take my seat until about 40 minutes into the game.

When I did sit down, the table seemed reasonably active, I decided to sit and wait for a while and get a feel for it.

About 20 minutes in, I picked up KK in the BB, (Blinds 50/100) Starting stack 20,000.  Obviously delighted and trying to work out how I was going to play it, the betting started.  UTG+2 made it a min to 200, 3 callers, round to me.  I made it 700 looking for some action, and the initial raiser insta made it 3800!  I was a bit surprised and it folded back to me.  It was an Asian woman who I didn’t have any info on really.  She hadn’t been particularly active, so I went into the tank.  I kept saying to myself, ‘you cant fold KK pre ever!!’, but then convinced myself she had aces, and that I believed she would turn them over when I folded for some reason!  After a couple of minutes I thought I’d let it go and she mucked.

There are a number of things here, and a number of lines I think I could’ve taken, I wonder which one you think is best?

1)  I should’ve made the initial 3 bet bigger.  I think my 700 looks like a bit of a weak squeeze, and if she read it as that, she’s just bullying and I should’ve shoved over the top of her when she 4 bet.  If this was the case, a 5 bet gets rid of her, or if she calls, I can get it in on the flop.  The problem with this is, with no info on her, how do I know?  What do you think the average player has with no info in this spot.  It just seems such an odd raise.

2. My raise of 700 stands.  If I am not going to fold KK here, what is the correct play?  Is it;

a) Shove over the top and hope for a call from QQ, AK ,maybe occasionally JJ or AQ if she’s crazy!

b) Min raise, which more or less tells her I am willing to get my stack in, and if she shoves I can make the decision then.

c) Flat the raise. I don’t like this myself as what am I hoping for on the flop? Is it just always going to go in if the board brings 3 unders?  Am I always going to fold when an ace hits?  I suppose if I flat, I can see what she does when I check the flop, (if I check it, should I bet out?).  Can I bet out and fold to a raise on the flop if there are 3 unders?

The bottom line is this, (and I am sure it is probably wrong in the long term).

I went to Spain in the biggest tournament I played in and I didn’t want to bust so early.  I think for a 4% of my stack investment into the pot, I can fold, get rid and find a better spot, especially when we’re 200 BB deep.  I’d be interested to hear what you think.  By the way, I suppose one regret is that although I did make it about 7 hours into the tournament, the spots didn’t come, and I ended up whittling my stack away and thought I may as well have got it in with the Kings after all!  But having said that, I gained some good experience of a bigger buy in event, so I think it was worth it after all, even though in a smaller event, the money would’ve gone in every day of the week, and twice on Sunday!!

Cheers,

Will

[rfgqqabc]

Having played in this tournament you would be horrifically wrong to fold vs 99.6% of the field. Vs a random asian lady it is hard to say. I would call in your spot. I would be comfortable backing my judgement. I think you should have perhaps just 5b gone with it. People were crazy in this field especially.

[TightEnd]

Hi Will welcome to blonde, and thanks for playing the Online cash games

I know what you are saying about wanting to play for longer, not get knocked out early but next time, or after a bit more experience, you are at least 5 betting, and probably shoving?

If she has Aces..gg, gl and hit that King

[Evilpengwinz]

If she has Aces..gg, gl and hit that King

^ This.

[BorntoBubble]

5bet/get it in.

If she has aa speak to Pleno he always has kk into aa

[pleno1]

i dont feel comfortable getting it in vs a woman who raised utg for 200bbs.

[Pinchop73]

Flat the 4b almost 100% for me.

Doesn't sound like you have enough info to know she's going to spazz 200bb with AQo. Also would be a massive shame to prevent her from seeing a Q73r flop. General population read would suggest a heavily biased value range, but with a post flop spr of 2:1 we can't really fold, yet.

[theprawnidentity]

i dont feel comfortable getting it in vs a woman who raised utg for 200bbs.

I don't feel comfortable being in a thread with the above situation.

[gouty]

It's a funny spot, which you get a lot in this kind of event early on.

Utg min raise then pretty huge over raise is just bizarre. I wonder what her raise would be had you made it 1350 or more?

Min raise now just for a laugh. Look her in the eye and fold when she shoves.

[pleno1]

i was going to say something but everybody will call me results orientated heh

[NoCardDSC]

I'm flatting this 4bet nearly 100% of the time (readless) and see what happens post.

[lolwutwasthat]

I just fold pre ainec!

[lolwutwasthat]

After she 4bs ofc

[dwayne110]

The re-raise size should reassure you she's less likely to have Aces? Pretty random to raise nearly 6 times your raise (i.e. as if she wants a fold)...

I reckon she's showing up with AK/Queens/Jacks mostly here, so a raise/call off seems best to me ; if she does have Aces she's massacred the hand and so justice will naturally be served with a King on the flop

[WotRTheChances]

3-bet is just way way way way to small. Clearly should be more like 1400-1600 if not more, this comp will have been really soft I imagine (it's in Marbella), so you'll just get peeled a bunch normally. As played I probably just peel and expect to be calling down on most runouts. Probably not loving getting it in vs a lady who's opened UTG after you've 3bet so small. If you were to get it in then 5-bet calling is certainly going to be a lot better than jamming.