PLO, options options options...

[SuuPRlim]

This is quite a fun hand...

GAME #5207486614: Omaha  PL £3/£6 2013-10-27 22:54:04
Table Duncannon
Seat 1: oshkoshbgosh (£1,087.87 in chips)
Seat 3: sway123 (£615.75 in chips) DEALER
Seat 5: LostInBatCountry (£1,802.23 in chips)
Seat 6: Lil Dave (£648.00 in chips)
Seat 8: schuschnix (£652.50 in chips)
LostInBatCountry: Post SB £3.00
Lil Dave: Post BB £6.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lil Dave [       ]
schuschnix: Fold
oshkoshbgosh: Fold
sway123: Raise (NF) £18.00
LostInBatCountry: Fold
Lil Dave: Call £12.00
*** FLOP *** [     ]
Lil Dave: Check
sway123: Bet £27.30
Lil Dave: Call £27.30
*** TURN *** []
Lil Dave: Check
sway123: Bet £65.52
Lil Dave: Call £65.52
*** RIVER *** [ ]
Lil Dave: Check
sway123: Bet £180.00
Lil Dave: ...

Opponent in this hand is a regular player, nothing overly note-worthy about him, defo tighter pre-flop stats (24/16/6) he opens un-opened buttons 55% of the time (a fair bit below average) and has more passive pre-flop tendencies (70% cbet (a bit lower than av.) and agg. freq which decreases down the streets) you usually expect someone who is tighter pre-flop, to have more agrgressive stats post-flop tendencies (cos they have better starting hands) so basically it seems like he's kinda nitty, but never seen anything terrible from him and seems to read hands decently well from pots we've played.

Pre-flop is kinda loose - could make an argument for 3betting it, vs a strong player opening the button I'd just fold this, but vs someone not too aggro postflop I think defending is good/fine - IDK if anyonen disagrees with that?

Flop, again could do all 3, I think vs someone who is not too aggro on turns/rivers calling seems the best, i'd prefer to have a pair in my hand if I was gonna c/r bluff but actually this seems abso fine here as well...

Turn, now we have a straight I think c/call is kinda the only option, leading doesn't make a lot sense and c/r seems a little risky given if he shoves we prolly must call off and that might not be fun.

River - £225 in the pot and he goes for £180 which is very big. (£510 back)

Folding, Calling, Raising could all be reasonable?
What you think?

[rfgqqabc]

Hes used preset 2/3, then 2/3 then typed a bet in on the river. Combined with it being so big, it feels like he has it. Ofc, we do seem to have one of the strongest hands in our range, as I imagine we would get aggressive with a 7 at some point. We should call sometimes, I can't decide whether this is one though. Maybe use the suits to randomise? It does seem like a good spot for him to unload the clip

[Dry em]

I'd consider disconnecting on the river. Makes for an easier decision.

[jgcblack]

Probably going to seem silly... but my biggest problem in this game at the moment is supposed to be the easiest part - pre flop.

We have a hand with non nut everything and we have to hit exactly a 7 in order to try and make a 'good hand'.
Can you explain some of the strengths, opportunities and ideas for this hand postflop please?  (off forum is fine)

[LonOhRay]

(off forum is fine)

 

[pleno1]

I'd consider disconnecting on the river. Makes for an easier decision.

Poty.

[rfgqqabc]

Probably going to seem silly... but my biggest problem in this game at the moment is supposed to be the easiest part - pre flop.

We have a hand with non nut everything and we have to hit exactly a 7 in order to try and make a 'good hand'.
Can you explain some of the strengths, opportunities and ideas for this hand postflop please?  (off forum is fine)

We need to defend X amount to stop our opponent being profitable directly from 3xing the btn. In order to prevent this we need to defend faiirly wide. As our opponent is opening 55% of unopened buttons we can defend somewhat liberally. Q956ds is the 97s of NLHE.

[jgcblack]

Probably going to seem silly... but my biggest problem in this game at the moment is supposed to be the easiest part - pre flop.

We have a hand with non nut everything and we have to hit exactly a 7 in order to try and make a 'good hand'.
Can you explain some of the strengths, opportunities and ideas for this hand postflop please?  (off forum is fine)

We need to defend X amount to stop our opponent being profitable directly from 3xing the btn. In order to prevent this we need to defend faiirly wide. As our opponent is opening 55% of unopened buttons we can defend somewhat liberally. Q956ds is the 97s of NLHE.

well we're not folding 97s pre in bb to anyone for 3x... Melissa, TK or Mitch

[AlexMartin]

river seems like a pretty clear fold? likely never vbetting worse, rarely bluffing given he cant expect us to fold straights/boats and his preflop tightness indicates he's probably less likely to be good enough to rofl around turning 7x into a bluff all day long? everything else looks standard?

why is raise an option?

[GreekStein]

river seems like a pretty clear fold? likely never vbetting worse, rarely bluffing given he cant expect us to fold straights/boats and his preflop tightness indicates he's probably less likely to be good enough to rofl around turning 7x into a bluff all day long? everything else looks standard?

why is raise an option?

because it's lil dave and he has one blocker to 76!

I like your post though Alexis. I agree.

[SuuPRlim]

@john

the fact he's 3x'd is relevant, but less so than in NL, as raising to 3x form the Btn pretty stnd in PLO, usually a result of how tight you open to button, me I open to 2.5x OTB (used to be 2.25x until ipoker brought out a 2.5x btn so now i just use that lol) cos i'm opening 72-78% and not folding to that many 3bets, he has a stronger range so can put more money in with it.
given he's kinda passive post-flop, you're gonna get under less pressure post-flop, i.e you'll make a 9high flush and be allowed to show it down etc, whereas a tougher opponent will make it a lot harder to i) win the pot, or ii) realise your hands equity, given it's double suited-ness and it's somewhat connected I think this is ok to make a loose call with OOP, although folding could well be a better option. If he was a weaker/looser player then I think 3betting it would be ok as well actually.

Yes raising as a bluff was the otion I put forward we have a 6blocker and rep all the 7's full hands pretty well, you could argue though that if he has enough air in his range to ship it here then calling seems like it would also be ok... ?

[jgcblack]

Thanks fella, impressive way to take a game where I understand some very basic fundamentals and make a hand that a successful reg has played, more accessible to a novice.

appreciate it.

[Oxford_HRV]

considering the somewhat tight stats, and a 55% btn open, we know his range is a lot less nutted than yours.

on the turn we have the best hand way too much of the time and calling seems fine, i think i prefer to raise the turn Vs this villain. circa 170

would you say the big river bet is more 7889 than it a boat or even quads!?

you look a lot like bust FD with pairs otr, how small would you say is his calling/GII range on the turn facing a raise? you raise turn he cant continue with a lot of dominating heart draws, OP's. he cant really have 33/44/73/74 but you can. in reality 78JhTh is losing on the turn.

[SuuPRlim]

considering the somewhat tight stats, and a 55% btn open, we know his range is a lot less nutted than yours.

on the turn we have the best hand way too much of the time and calling seems fine, i think i prefer to raise the turn Vs this villain. circa 170

Yeh I agree, whereas he certainly can have FH's OTT, any dbl paired hand that involves 33 (QQ33, 6633 etc), 8745 with a suit, AK73dbl etc it's fair to say that due to his tighter nature pre-flop he doesn't have as many boats as more aggressive players pre-flop. I did consider raising OTT for the reasons you said, actually was quite close to raising, however IIRC the reason I didn't was basically I didn't know how to react to a 3bet AI from him + I was worried about playability on river cards, say I c/r and he calls and then the river is a JACK, or a heart I'd have no idea whether I should be betting for value, chk/folding, chk/calling + whereas a lot of his air goes from his range when he bets the turn again given how I percieve him post-flop he still prolly has a selection of weaker hands/semi-bluffs that could be drawing pretty thin against my hand (JJ with hearts etc) and we don't really have a lot we need to protect against at this point.

would you say the big river bet is more 7889 than it a boat or even quads!?

you look a lot like bust FD with pairs otr, how small would you say is his calling/GII range on the turn facing a raise? you raise turn he cant continue with a lot of dominating heart draws, OP's. he cant really have 33/44/73/74 but you can. in reality 78JhTh is losing on the turn.

What do I think his betting range is OTR? Well I think he'd bet every boat 33+ for sure, I also think he'd bet 85 as well, the most interesting hands are non-boat 7x and the same straight if he'd bet those, the big river bet is quite curious as my range is quite strong to c/call twice (a lot of 7xxx, straights, I don't have 33/44 hardly at all, and a lot of my 7xxx hands from preflop will all have cards above - calling OOP much more likely to have AQJ7 with nut suit than 7643 + a lot of the strong mid-run downs are quite stnd to 3bet so it's pretty possible he believes my range doesn't have many boats in it, the £180 bet felt at the time like it was designed to make me fold OP+hearts and naked 7's as realistically if he has 73 then what is he hoping to be called by for such a big bet on the river?

So as what I do with my range OTR, it's quite easy to be all-in with 76 and 74 I think 73 is close but prolly just a call, I think 58 is also a call but what to do with the 7 high straight and A7/K7 is the tricky bit, and what hands to we elect to bluff with, given we have a pretty thin value all-in range we only need a few bluffs to balance this out, logically 78JT type hands are going to be the best ones to bluff with. I'm still undecided about the 7 straight and A7/K7.

As it played I actually elected to go all-in (somewhat exploitativly as I had a bit of a read on him this hand) my main hope was that he fold the same straight/58 as was slightly more sure than normal he didn't have a boat here, I also think he prolly would have folded 33. He did fold and actually after the hand I was pretty sure I had thebest hand anyways.

I don't like using this hand as a bluff in retrospect I think it's a hand that belongs in my calling or folding range here (I'm at the point of indifference right now as to which one) I guess the answer lies in whether he himself with value-bet A7 otr, if he does then it swings it into calling for me but that's very speculative and actually I am not too sure he will have done (although as the hand played out + the way he folded here it actually would make sense that he did do that) but really it's kinda guesswork and I think looking back folding was prolly best. Perhaps randomising my calling with the 7 straight based on blocker value, i.e here I can use my 6 blocker to make a call whereas without I could fold

Gd post Oxford (apologies this post is a bit jumbled, I think he's bluffing = lets turn our hand into a bluff mumble mumble lol ) + opinions on what to do with A7 and K7 would be interesting.

[Oxford_HRV]

I did consider raising OTT for the reasons you said, actually was quite close to raising, however IIRC the reason I didn't was basically I didn't know how to react to a 3bet AI from him + I was worried about playability on river cards, say I c/r and he calls and then the river is a JACK, or a heart I'd have no idea whether I should be betting for value, chk/folding, chk/calling + whereas a lot of his air goes from his range when he bets the turn again given how I percieve him post-flop he still prolly has a selection of weaker hands/semi-bluffs that could be drawing pretty thin against my hand (JJ with hearts etc) and we don't really have a lot we need to protect against at this point.

got to say, love the whole post. shouldnt i be paying £100 for reading this hahaha

I feel that say nearly all of his airballin' range goes when he bets the turn, i really think a ton of villains hands are going to be 7x then hands drawing thin; OP with hearts. they do look beaut HU BTNvBB :')
i dont think im clear with calling or if we should raise this turn. what sizing is best i'm not too sure, clicking is back is pointless/bad considering we want folds for obv reasons. and pot ~280 is definitely better but not really effective with our hand here. calling seems weak and we may not have to protect against a lot, but if the river hearts up id suggest we should frequently bet and be getting folds?

the river is of course a more a tricky decision than the turn, idk why i said we could have 44's full but all other houses yh. ^~^

if the river was a heart i couldnt see villain going for thin value with flushes after you c/c twice on a paired flop. would you consider donking as a bluff?
   As it plays with you facing 180 OTR the 3-7 should be in shoving range, whilst A7/K7's couldnt be, because i put that as a big part of his weaker made hand bluffing range, taking this out i think you're nearly always beat. idk about the maths but with your hand i'd be using this in your bluffing range rather than deciding it should be a call/fold hand, i'd rather have 7x's in calling/folding range cus it seems to be good as villain wont have your a straight often enough vs you in this spot. villain will be a lot more likely to think 'hey i have trip7 so its easy for me to have 74/73/76xx lets bluff huge ftw!' therefore it is including so much of his 7xxx range into the river bluffing hand range he has! while his heart draw OP hands will be bluffing less frequently cus he thinks he can win at showdown more often than he does here. it really is guesswork as if villain had A7/K7 but considering how you describe villain, he doesnt seem to be as good as reg's and his nitty/weak style combined with a lol confusing big bet seems like he got transfixed his 7x would be good, didnt think about the hand correctly and wanted to take it down and really hoped to get you to fold all your hearts/2pairs and 3-7, so it looks this way for sure now he folded to your all in.

my opinion's om having a7/k7 are; if we were in the same situation with 7xxx from what i gather, villain will have a worse hand than you a hell of a lot more infequently than this time considering trip 7's makes up such a proportion of villains bluffing range, making A7/K7 folds.

so if we created a bluffing range on the river for villain and included half of the A7/K7xx hands then took them away, thats a huge part of his range he is now not bluffing with making our A7/K7xx vs his range in a lot worse shape as he will (should) be nutted