$26 6.5k final

[ZZZZZZZROPE]

final of the $26 $6.5k on full tilt.

No stats/ reads on villain, as the FT has basically just started.

Opinions on how this is played? like i think the c/r on flop is fine, but ICM wise should we just small bal this and try to bink? I feel it was a bit of an ICM disaster as i was 4/8 at the time i think.


Full Tilt, 1,500/3,000 blinds, 400 ante No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

MP2: 309,848 (103.3 bb)
MP3: 178,911 (59.6 bb)
CO: 177,430 (59.1 bb)
BTN: 33,028 (11 bb)
SB: 17,311 (5.8 bb)
Hero (BB): 160,461 (53.5 bb)
UTG+2: 55,504 (18.5 bb)
MP1: 36,507 (12.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with
4 folds, CO calls 3,000, 2 folds, Hero checks

Flop: (10,700) As (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets 6,000, Hero raises to 15,450, CO raises to 36,000, Hero calls 20,550

Turn: (82,700) (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets 39,000, Hero raises to 121,061 and is all-in, CO calls 82,061

River: (324,822) (2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: 324,822 pot
Final Board: As
CO showed and won 324,822 (164,361 net)
Hero showed and lost (-160,461 net)

[lucky_scrote]

Well without seeing your hand you aren't getting any credit from me, your line is bullshit.

There are also 3 tiny stacks and another shorty as well, getting it in is v v risky.

My line would be just donk flop because your opponent is just going to fold a ton, once you've checked though I'm just going to call.

[lucky_scrote]

If I'm in your seat and villain gets it in with AK in this scenario he's dead to 3 outs

[millidonk]

fwiw not sure how many tables you had on the go but I always like to rail both tables when down to last 2 so I have some sort of read on the others when FT starts.

Opinions on how hand was played:

I don't mind the flop c/r really as it will probs fold out all his PPs that he is Cbetting with but as soon as he 4bets us then we know we are in trouble. Think the turn jam is the worst part of the hand by far! doesn't improve our hand at all. Good questions to ask yourself are: What do you think you are repping and what are you expecting to fold out with the turn jam? I just c/c turn and c/f river imo. If we brick the river we are still left with 80k @ 1k/3k.

[ZZZZZZZROPE]

cheers guys yeah i agree it was pretty awfull on turn. Live and learn though

[lucky_scrote]

I don't mind the flop c/r really as it will probs fold out all his PPs that he is Cbetting with but as soon as he 4bets us then we know we are in trouble.

Check raising doesn't really do anything, check calling will slow him down and he'll end up folding to a bet by the river with the same hands he's folding on the flop. Check calling the flop is repping something, it means you don't look quite as strong but you don't really need to look really strong vs this opponents range. You also have decent equity if he has top pair anyway.

[millidonk]

I don't mind the flop c/r really as it will probs fold out all his PPs that he is Cbetting with but as soon as he 4bets us then we know we are in trouble.

Check raising doesn't really do anything, check calling will slow him down and he'll end up folding to a bet by the river with the same hands he's folding on the flop. Check calling the flop is repping something, it means you don't look quite as strong but you don't really need to look really strong vs this opponents range. You also have decent equity if he has top pair anyway.

It does though; A lot of people will double barrel as standard, so c/r flop can put an end to that plus it gives you the chance to win the hand then and there. Also by c/c he could put you on fd and thus be more inclined to fire the second barrel.

[rfgqqabc]

Turn shove is very optimistic when you've been 3b on the flop in a low stake tournament. I don't mind the flop check/raise, I think check/raise > donk and check/call. I think we can put our opponents range in a world of hurt, I wouldn't mind donking either though. Many people stab A high boards here, even as a limper.

[lucky_scrote]

You've just seen the problem with CR'ing. ICM has a huge factor here, I don't even think it's the best line even without ICM. I need some persuading to think I'm wrong I think.

[lucky_scrote]

You're also going on the assumption that he is c-betting 100% which is obviously not known, the guy is an unknown. Unknowns certainly don't make a habit of limping the CO then double barreling with a large part of their range.

If this guy only happens to c-bet strong hands then the check raise is going to get the pot big, out of position, with the worst hand, in an ICM horror show.

I'm not denying that playing this hand is +cEV at all, it obviously is.

[rfgqqabc]

You've just seen the problem with CR'ing. ICM has a huge factor here, I don't even think it's the best line even without ICM. I need some persuading to think I'm wrong I think.

Even when we get 3bet on the flop we can call the turn and still have 27bb. I wouldn't expect to get 3bet on the flop very wide at all. Admittedly having some sort of reads would make the whole thing easier to play. I think c/ring is the best way to get him off his weak hands, and I'd expect him to have lots of these having limped the cutoff. By check/calling the flop, we only allow him to bluffcatch effectively, in position, and play his hand fairly well against us. I just don't think he has that many strong hands on this flop but he does bet the flop a huge amount of the time when checked too. The problem I have with donking is we allow him to play so perfectly against us. ICM is always a factor, but we have started off with a SPR otf of over 16. Even on the turn if our check/raise had been called we still have a SPR of 4. If we bet the turn and miss we still can check with over 100k in our stack. We can still nearly be 4/8 even as the hand went down!

[lucky_scrote]

Ok starting to change my mind a bit, I agree with most of your post except about donking. I like donking here, you're taking the imitative which makes playing down the streets a bit easier.

Whatever happens though, I don't like the pot getting big though. We are in too much of a good spot at this final with all the shorties.

[Oxford_HRV]

in game i'm just going to be a fish this deep call call ect with a juicy draw, and go for max when you bink turn or river
i do very much like donking flop though in this scenario

[The Squid]

Don't think we should be donking. We should lead boards that hit our perceived range. We know we would check a lot of Aces in this spot but Ace high board hits our opponents perceived range more than ours so we gonna get played back at a lot and the pots gonna get inflated cos we don't have any showdown value.

[gs08bjohnson]

Don't think we should be donking. We should lead boards that hit our perceived range. We know we would check a lot of Aces in this spot but Ace high board hits our opponents perceived range more than ours so we gonna get played back at a lot and the pots gonna get inflated cos we don't have any showdown value.

This is nice when our opponent cares/realises this.  Not everyone's brain works as well as yours buddy. 

Against weak opponents who call too much - this guy is loving AK here in a limped pot -  I wouldn't be looking to inflate the pot oop by c/r. ICM is definitely a factor here too in favour of keeping the pot small.

C/r c/r shows some heart though. On a board this draw heavy though i know i don't believe people risk free cards by c/r the turn with made hands, so turn c/r is not ideal IMO.