600NL shouldn't happen

[polerization]

so for some reason one of my friends decided to play $600nl i just want an opinion on a hand that happened:
background: Villain has doubled up on J103 with Q9O vs a set all in on the flop don't know much about him friend doesn't use a HUD so....
Villain: $800
Hero: $425
HERO:  in BB
Villain opens UTG to $12 and Hero 3-bets to $36 villain flats
flop:  how do you proceed from here?

[Honeybadger]

Start by check-calling.

[BorntoBubble]

Start by check-calling.

And it's very likely I'm doing this on most streets depending on run outs obviously cannot think of too many run outs I'm folding though

[BorntoBubble]

Start by reloading

Fyp if your going to take a shot my advice is either to short stack completely (eurgh)

Or sit with a full stack to Maximise your double up oppertunitys

[polerization]

Start by check-calling.

And it's very likely I'm doing this on most streets depending on run outs obviously cannot think of too many run outs I'm folding though

yeah this was my argument with my friend he said check-raise said this was pretty bad due to folding out worst only get called by better etc.....

Start by reloading

Fyp if your going to take a shot my advice is either to short stack completely (eurgh)

Or sit with a full stack to Maximise your double up oppertunitys

This wasn't me btw haha but i will tell him

[Honeybadger]

Start by check-calling.

And it's very likely I'm doing this on most streets depending on run outs obviously cannot think of too many run outs I'm folding though

yeah this was my argument with my friend he said check-raise said this was pretty bad due to folding out worst only get called by better etc.....

Check-raise? Really? That's utterly ridiculous.

[pleno1]

betting or check calling is perfectly fine, would do one sometimes, the other othertimes depending on dynamic.

check raising would literally be the worst possible move here.

[polerization]

haha thanks guys

[SuuPRlim]

2 ways to go here, 1) repping some bluffs + induce calls from weaker hands, 2) Rep weakness and get bets from weaker hands. if we pick 1) we should bet, if we pick 2) then we check, let him bet and take it from there.

If we check/raise then we run the risk of ending up being all-in against his legit value range, and it are not doing well against that.

I do understand the temptation though, we have a premium, gotten a bit of money in pre-flop and now we've got a really tough spot from a playability perspective but when we check-raise basically what we're doing is hoping that he doesn't have anything because we don't know the best way to proceed.

[tight4better]

Would rather hammer nails into my balls than C/r this flop.

[PathFinder]

I prefer to bet flop just because we are out of position and Villian can put a lot of pressure on us if we chk flop chk turn. In position I'm more likely to check flop. Probably going to bet/bet/chk depending on run out.

[Honeybadger]

I prefer to bet flop just because we are out of position and Villian can put a lot of pressure on us if we chk flop chk turn.

This is not a good reason to bet. Yes, it makes the hand feel 'easier to play' because villain will fold a lot of the time. However, those times he folds when we bet, we would have done better to check - since he might bluff with the hands that we beat. It is partly an illusion that betting makes the hand easier to play, and this illusion is caused by the positive reinforcement that comes from the fact that villain just folds so often (i.e. the times we are ahead). But even if the hand really is easier to play by betting, this is not the same as being the most +EV play. Our EV is higher if we can get villain to sometimes put money into the pot with hands that we beat (i.e. if he bluffs), rather than folding these hands - even if this does sometimes put us in icky spots.

If we do bet this flop it is FOR VALUE ... i.e. we hope to get called by Qx and some floats. And partly for protection - although there is very little to protect against on this flop given that no overcards can hit to outdraw our hand.

[PathFinder]

So if we are chk calling KK are we doing the same with JJ/QJ/KQ? Or even AA/QQ. To me it just feels our chk call range won't contain enough top range stuff unless you stick AK in there. We also have the  here so surely that influences our line?

[PathFinder]

I think he calls our bet with more than Qx to make our bet for value. I believe he calls J10/K10 (blockers I know) suited connectors 89hh+ backdoor spades as floats. I think if we chk he only bluffs hands with barrel equity. I honestly think a competent player will chk back Ax. I mean are we chk calling turn too if villian chks flop?

[Honeybadger]

So if we are chk calling KK are we doing the same with JJ/QJ/KQ? Or even AA/QQ.

We should not have KQ/QJ/JJ in our range.

To me it just feels our chk call range won't contain enough top range stuff unless you stick AK in there. We also have the here so surely that influences our line?

We should probably check quite a few of our Ax hands too.

I think he calls our bet with more than Qx to make our bet for value. I believe he calls J10/K10 (blockers I know) suited connectors 89hh+ backdoor spades as floats. I think if we chk he only bluffs hands with barrel equity.

I did not say that betting was wrong as such. What I said was that the reason you gave for betting (that villain can put pressure on us if we check - i.e. we want to avoid difficult decisions) was not a good reason for betting. There IS value in betting since villain can float us with gutters and second pair type hands. There is also a protection aspect to betting. But betting because we fear being put under pressure if we check is not a good reason.

Tbh, along with some Ax type hands, we have a pretty perfect check-calling hand. This is because we don't need to worry about protecting our hand too much (since no overcards can come), and we do pretty well against his check-back range - which means we can value bet the turn and/or river if he checks back the flop.

  

I honestly think a competent player will chk back Ax.

If opponent checks back Ax that is a big win for us, right?

I mean are we chk calling turn too if villian chks flop?

Depends what the turn card is... we can turn the NFD, trip Kings, or a gutter remember, although we might also c/c turn without picking up additional equity. BTW there is nothing theoretically wrong with c/c twice and then folding river - despite the popular aversion to taking this line. We also c/c with a lot of our Ax hands, and with these we (almost always) call the river.