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Author Topic: Shot Clocks in Live Poker. The way forward?  (Read 5735 times)
titaniumbean
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« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2014, 04:38:29 PM »

What scrote said, it's the incessant pointless time wasting from the people that know better that needs to be focused on.

It will just punish and disadvantage those less experienced recreational players whatever you want to call them. if you've played millions of hands online then your decisions in a lol live fest really aren't going to be that mentally challenging yet if you're new to the game suddenly having to act quickly every time it's on you is just going to put you off and lead to you making mistakes and not enjoying yourself.
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rfgqqabc
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« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2014, 04:44:04 PM »

I like my dealers to deal and my shot clock to stay in the NBA. Its just impossible to police. Gimmicky and trying to fix a problem that isn't really there imo.
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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2014, 04:45:22 PM »

The problem with an actual shot clock is that people who normally act quickly might start using the whole shot clock.

This.

As an aside, why is it, that when 'clock' is called we have to wait for the TD to arrive and then give the player another minute?
Why not give the dealer a timer for this, and make it another 30 seconds? Players under the clock will often take the full minute out of spite which just exacerbates the whole thing.
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« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2014, 04:54:07 PM »

As Lucky Scrote said this is not a solution to the actual problem. There are genuine times when you need to think and shouldn't be pressured, especially for players new to the game. It's the players that Hollywood over every preflop decision that ought to be subject to some sort of sanction
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HutchGF
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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2014, 05:31:59 PM »

Getting rid of the stigma of calling the clock would also help. A villain at the recent UKPC tanked a full, unexaggerated 8 minutes over a raise I made on the turn. I've never called the clock on someone as I was taught it was bad etiquette but I think this is wrong.

The bad etiquette in this situation was the mouthbreather wasting 8 minutes of the whole tables' life and going through the full amateur dramatics. I was negligent in not calling the clock after maybe 3 minutes and in future I will do.

It's rare IMHO that a decision cannot be made within 30 seconds so if we could get rid of the stigma of calling the clock and reducing the time allotted to 30 seconds I think this would have a dramatic effect.
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« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2014, 05:54:21 PM »

I'm all for a shot clock with a couple of timebank tokens. This is the main reason why I don't enjoy playing live poker.
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« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2014, 06:16:54 PM »

I must admit my one experience playing with live shot clock was a positive one. It was used (still probs is) in the cash games in Adelaide and if anything players deliberately didn't dwell close to the time limit, as they were worried their hand would be declared dead without warning (which was always given by the dealer counting down from 5).

I suppose you always get some clever dick, being all anti authoritarian who will deliberately do it but that is probably easy to spot with a shot clock than without one.
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pokerplayingfarmer
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« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2014, 08:51:54 PM »

Not the way forward IMO.  As has been said the main drain on any clock are the players taking too long over simple pre flop folds.  Yes there are the odd occasion when a player put in a spot takes too long, I agree that MOST of the time you know what your going to do within 30 seconds or so, calling the clock in these instances is solution for this if the need is felt.  A shot clock however will not replace the time lost by the player who takes 5 seconds, to look at his cards, 3 seconds to put them down, 5 seconds to pick them back up and look again, before eventually folding a good 20 seconds after they could of. I experienced this the other night again and it is very frustrating.  Something should be done about this if anything, but a shot clock is not the answer.
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« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2014, 10:15:39 PM »

The problem I have is when people have a routine like Michael tureniec does and spends 20 seconds to make a fold.


Think the solution to this is:

a) Incorporate "timely action" in the good practice/ethical play section of the rules with the option of a penalty.

b) Get the TD to warn players like this that they are in breach of a) and will have to speed up their routine or they will be penalised.  (It works in golf.)



Great idea, think this could be the way to go. The only draw back is the quality of the dealer, I've come across both dealers that are 1) Think they are the Gestapo or 2) Very badly trained and have no confidence or table presence. A bit of focus by the card room on making sure the dealers are trained to the highest standard and also have some confidence without being confrontational would go a long way to policing the table, backed up by the TD of course.

* Not all dealers fall into these two categories, some are fantastic. Anyone who frequents the G in Luton will have seen all 3!
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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2014, 10:19:22 PM »

Was playing cash last weekend, and an old bloke at the table took ages on every hand, had to be told it was on him, how much the bet was, etc.  Then he would moan and berate other players when they had a decision they needed to think about.

I tend to play pretty quickly, no amateur dramatics or unecessary dwellage.  However, I played one hand (old bloke wasn't involved) and had the nuts on the turn and the worst card fell on the river meaning I now was probably chopping or even worse had gone behind.  A decent player made a big bet on the river and I had a decision that would cost me a few hundred quid more to call (with already a lot more in the middle). So I was replaying the hand in my head to work out if he could have the one hand that did indeed beat me. 

The old bloke calls the clock on me.  Yes, the player who was slowing the game up every hand decided he wanted to speed things up at that point.  The dealer, who knows I don't piss about generally called the floor over and agreed that I'd had a 'reasonable' amount of time to make my decision and so the clock was enforced. 

I agree with what others have said, the problem is with those who slow up the play every hand - not those that need a bit of time for a big decision.  In cash, I'm not sure someone who isn't in the hand should be able to call the clock unless it's a ridiculous amount of time gone - and even then they probably should still remain schtum.
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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2014, 11:29:04 PM »

Was playing cash last weekend, and an old bloke at the table took ages on every hand, had to be told it was on him, how much the bet was, etc.  Then he would moan and berate other players when they had a decision they needed to think about.

I tend to play pretty quickly, no amateur dramatics or unecessary dwellage.  However, I played one hand (old bloke wasn't involved) and had the nuts on the turn and the worst card fell on the river meaning I now was probably chopping or even worse had gone behind.  A decent player made a big bet on the river and I had a decision that would cost me a few hundred quid more to call (with already a lot more in the middle). So I was replaying the hand in my head to work out if he could have the one hand that did indeed beat me. 

The old bloke calls the clock on me.  Yes, the player who was slowing the game up every hand decided he wanted to speed things up at that point.  The dealer, who knows I don't piss about generally called the floor over and agreed that I'd had a 'reasonable' amount of time to make my decision and so the clock was enforced. 

I agree with what others have said, the problem is with those who slow up the play every hand - not those that need a bit of time for a big decision.  In cash, I'm not sure someone who isn't in the hand should be able to call the clock unless it's a ridiculous amount of time gone - and even then they probably should still remain schtum.
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« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2014, 12:26:57 AM »

The problem is people copy what they see on the telly. Generally people on the telly can be attention whores or want to look like super complex thinkers. It requires a real behaviour change so it's important that all the cool poker players act quickly to drive the trend forwards. Obv I play super quickly to do my bit Wink
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« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2014, 03:53:28 AM »

Was playing cash last weekend, and an old bloke at the table took ages on every hand, had to be told it was on him, how much the bet was, etc.  Then he would moan and berate other players when they had a decision they needed to think about.

I tend to play pretty quickly, no amateur dramatics or unecessary dwellage.  However, I played one hand (old bloke wasn't involved) and had the nuts on the turn and the worst card fell on the river meaning I now was probably chopping or even worse had gone behind.  A decent player made a big bet on the river and I had a decision that would cost me a few hundred quid more to call (with already a lot more in the middle). So I was replaying the hand in my head to work out if he could have the one hand that did indeed beat me. 

The old bloke calls the clock on me.  Yes, the player who was slowing the game up every hand decided he wanted to speed things up at that point.  The dealer, who knows I don't piss about generally called the floor over and agreed that I'd had a 'reasonable' amount of time to make my decision and so the clock was enforced. 

I agree with what others have said, the problem is with those who slow up the play every hand - not those that need a bit of time for a big decision.  In cash, I'm not sure someone who isn't in the hand should be able to call the clock unless it's a ridiculous amount of time gone - and even then they probably should still remain schtum.

Bang out of order to have the clock called on you in a cash game IMHO, and personally do not think it should be allowed in cash.

Personally I think that players need to stop thinking they are on T.V and just get on with it, no one ever believes you have a hand if you are constantly dwelling up for time.

Also hate the fact players need to time bank 30 seconds to ponder their pre flop action, wtf
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« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2014, 04:17:02 AM »

Yeah I don't really think it would help much tbh... it's the people that take 20-30 seconds over every decision that are the culprits... and they'll still get their 20-30 seconds, they'll just use it every time. I have no issue with anyone taking a minute or so to make a decision that is tough... even if it's only tough to them and to others it may seem trivial  -  it's their money.  Those that posture and use up time every hand to put on their own little show at the constant expense of others time are the ones who need to be targeted, no idea how though (it's fairly rare in my experiance)
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« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2014, 10:22:10 AM »

Hate the idea, only people who call for this stuff is miserable pros IMO. Most people in live poker are kinda slow, that just the way it is, but then they've paid there buyin/reg fee like everyone else so gotta let em play as they want to. I actually think the problem is hugely exaggerated tbh.

This is true though;

The problem is people copy what they see on the telly. Generally people on the telly can be attention whores or want to look like super complex thinkers. It requires a real behaviour change so it's important that all the cool poker players act quickly to drive the trend forwards. Obv I play super quickly to do my bit Wink

Dwan on high stakes poker is where is started, taking forever over lots of decisions, to be fair to him though he came out and said "look I've never really played live poker much before and I jumped straight into $400/$800/$200 with some sharky old school live guys and $500k stacks, I had to take my time" which is kind of fair enough but it's still paved the way for some very bad habits.

Like beanie says, it's ppl who should know better who need telling!
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