Could I have extracted more value?

[TimothyVanwinkle]

Hi all, I've been playing poker as a bit of a hobby for a while. I really enjoy it and want put more effort into my game and try playing at a higher level. I've read a couple of books and watched a few training vids which have helped me understand things a bit better but I want to try and analyze my own hands and try to get some opinions/advice in spots. Thanks in advance for any help.


Live MTT £25 buy in, 25000 chips with 70 runners.

3 hands in and blinds are 25/50. I'm +2 have raise to 200 with  , I'm then 3bet to 1200 by someone in mid position, its folded round and I just flat. 3 bets aren't so regular in these tournaments and are usually very strong AK JJ+. I thought of 4 betting but I don't like the idea inflating pots and risking a huge chunk of my stack so early. We go heads up and the flop comes  . I have no history with this guy but I'm pretty certain hes going to C bet so I check trying not to show I'm so strong and let him inflate the pot. He bets 2100 and I just call. Looking back should I have maybe check raised then for more value? the turn came , I check once again and he fires out 2800 which I call. The river is  , I lead out for 5000 and he folds. I'm not sure if I could have got much more out of the hand with a check raise on the flop or turn, maybe hes only calling a check raise on the turn with  in his hand?

[verndog158]

welcome to blond! aplogies that i am your first responder, am sure the good players will be along tomorrow to offer their thoughts too.
i dont 4x, but meh who cares!
Always 4 betting here, especially out of position. I know its early and we dont want to lose our stack in a 'cooler' but we have the second nuts, always looking to get it in pre flop, so am always 4 betting.
Flop is alright, can see why you would check raise, but as we have flatted the 3 bet pre flop then we can c/call as our hand is underrepped for sure, although it is a fairly wet board, so i dont mind raising.
Turn is a check raise i think,if you think that they are only ever 3 betting with JJ+ and AK (which i think is wayyyyy too tight a range by the way) then there are literally no flushes he can have, as the   and   are on the board. this in mind, he could easily have  . His bet is sorta small too, potentially a blocker bet trying to see a river card. Therefore am always raising here, to maybe something like 6300. Want to get max value here, as we have the best hand so often, and can charge his draws, as well as get value out of hands we beat, such as KQ, AK, QQ etc
As played, think we have to check the river, i know it seems like he might check back, and we vomit into our hoody, but dont feel like we get value out of any of his hands at all, hes never calling light when you lead the river. Checking allows him to barrell with some of his bluffs as well trying to extract thin value with whatever hand he may have. We then proceed to annouce raise and go sick all over him!

Anyway, i have an exam in 9hours, glgl, keep posting

[Flash92]

Yeah 4B pre for me too, he's rarely 3/f and as mentioned we want to get this in really, even if he is 3b really tight.

I think I would c/r the flop here, there are just too many turn cards that we do not like, and we could make our hand look like draws etc.

After we just call the flop, I don't think that a lead, c/c or c/r raise here are particularly bad.

As played on the river I think we can either bet really small to induce a bluff raise/light call or we could check and allow x to bluff.

I am open however to other options on all post-flop decisions.

Welcome to Blonde.

Ash.

[AlexMartin]

i like pre, id cr flop or c/c flop and turn.

[muckthenuts]

I'd go ahead and 4b, it's live £25 so prefer to just keep raising our very good hands for value. Sometimes in tight online games i will flat, or for deception vs strong opponents but i don't think in the long run we need to do that here.

Same as Alex postflop. I think i'd make a small flop c/r most of the time. As played c/c turn and leading this particular river on the larger side. edit: just realised its the same card as the flop lol but presume the 4 did pair

[Honeybadger]

Why are people recommending check-calling turn then leading river?

If you are check-calling flop and turn then FFS don't pussy out... check the river too!

[muckthenuts]

Why are people recommending check-calling turn then leading river?

If you are check-calling flop and turn then FFS don't pussy out... check the river too!

Because he'll usually not bet remotely thin but probably call fairly wide?

I'd think air gives up a lot on this river card too, so i don't think we're missing out on a 3rd barrel very often.

[Oxford_HRV]

welcome to blond! aplogies that i am your first responder, am sure the good players will be along tomorrow to offer their thoughts too.
i dont 4x, but meh who cares!
Always 4 betting here, especially out of position. I know its early and we dont want to lose our stack in a 'cooler' but we have the second nuts, always looking to get it in pre flop, so am always 4 betting.
Flop is alright, can see why you would check raise, but as we have flatted the 3 bet pre flop then we can c/call as our hand is underrepped for sure, although it is a fairly wet board, so i dont mind raising.
Turn is a check raise i think,if you think that they are only ever 3 betting with JJ+ and AK (which i think is wayyyyy too tight a range by the way) then there are literally no flushes he can have, as the   and   are on the board. this in mind, he could easily have  . His bet is sorta small too, potentially a blocker bet trying to see a river card. Therefore am always raising here, to maybe something like 6300. Want to get max value here, as we have the best hand so often, and can charge his draws, as well as get value out of hands we beat, such as KQ, AK, QQ etc
As played, think we have to check the river, i know it seems like he might check back, and we vomit into our hoody, but dont feel like we get value out of any of his hands at all, hes never calling light when you lead the river. Checking allows him to barrell with some of his bluffs as well trying to extract thin value with whatever hand he may have. We then proceed to annouce raise and go sick all over him!

Anyway, i have an exam in 9hours, glgl, keep posting

 

[Honeybadger]

Why are people recommending check-calling turn then leading river?

If you are check-calling flop and turn then FFS don't pussy out... check the river too!

Because he'll usually not bet remotely thin but probably call fairly wide?

I'd think air gives up a lot on this river card too, so i don't think we're missing out on a 3rd barrel very often.

That's a big assumption to make apart from anything else. Hero has played by c/c twice in order to get bluffs and thin value bets. It seems inconsistent to change plan now.

[muckthenuts]

Why are people recommending check-calling turn then leading river?

If you are check-calling flop and turn then FFS don't pussy out... check the river too!

Because he'll usually not bet remotely thin but probably call fairly wide?

I'd think air gives up a lot on this river card too, so i don't think we're missing out on a 3rd barrel very often.

That's a big assumption to make apart from anything else. Hero has played by c/c twice in order to get bluffs and thin value bets. It seems inconsistent to change plan now.

Don't think i'm quite on the same page as you, just going on pop reads here as we have no info on villain.

Ime in live £25's people don't value bet rivers at all thin this early on, would not be surprised to see every value hand that isn't a very strong flush or full house check back and showdown. However on the opposite side i would expect to be called by a bunch of the hands that would have checked back as people just do not fold. Combos of AA, AK, KQ, and also small/medium flushes if he has a few, i think we can get a call from.

Regarding value from bluffs i still don't think it's a big assumption at all to think that they will give up the river a lot after we've peeled a 3b and called twice, perhaps even irrespective of the river card but especially i feel on the board pair. So not really sold on the benefits to checking over betting but open to discussion

[SuuPRlim]

I do agree with stu that c/c c/c lead is very out of rhythm and feels pretty messy from any logical angle...

However I do sort of agree with amir that people are exceptionally nitty with vb's here so actually playing a "street by street" kinda way I think this hand is pretty well played All in all, but I would consider betting a bit less OTR.

This does however lead me to conclude that c/r flop is the best play, gives us the betting lead and people are incredibly stubborn in these comps and avoids us having to play the river like this. In a slightly different environment I'd be loving c/c c/c c/r