Sky 6max weird spot

[TL900]

250/500 1k main event

UTG : 14k
me : 32k
button : 70k
sb : 90k
bb : dead stack 25k

UTG limps (limped a few times has limp/jammed a few times recently too) I look down at   and flick in a call button and sb complete go 4 way

 

Checks to me I lead 1900 into 2700 button calls, SB (youngish guy been pretty stationy thus far especially on rivers hasn't check raised a flop once yet) makes it 4500, I call? button folds

  (Pot 13500~)

SB bets 8800, We have 27k eff ott. We?

[cambridgealex]

I'm Raise/getting it in on the flop personally.

Would fold now.

[baldock92]

3 bet the flop. I'd find it tough to find a fold on the turn even with the paired board.

[pleno1]

why do we want to 3bet the flop? im assuming he can r/f 2 pairs on this flop, some sets raise pre and he has lots of combos of straights that beat us.

id call turn fold river personally.

[TL900]

why do we want to 3bet the flop? im assuming he can r/f 2 pairs on this flop, some sets raise pre and he has lots of combos of straights that beat us.

id call turn fold river personally.

what hands do u think hes betting turn with that arent jamming river?

[muckthenuts]

I would 3b flop. We can easily have a number of draws with people not really intending to c/r fold 2 pair on a texture like this, even more so if stationy = weaker player. There are lots of other hands he can get in otf which we'll be happy to see.

I think he can have some fd's/combo draws that can c/r flop, continue turn and then give up river if missed. If he follows through otr after this turn card i would fold river.

[Tal]

Doesn't a bet/call on that flop look way stronger than a 3bet? What could you legitimately have limped the button with, then bet/called with on the flop? His turn bet is super polarising to me, so we get losing hands to fold and winning hands to snap call if we shove on the turn.

If we 3bet the flop, we can get more chips in with a reasonable number of bluffs and big diamonds in our range. I don't see how we are making money on the turn. 

[Pinchop73]

This is a see you at the river decision otf and I'm not taking any action to prevent this from happening with the spr as it is

However, this is a disgusting turn card, I believe this to be one of those 15% spots where you just have to have a change of plan, due to his value heavy narrow flop c/r range

[TL900]

Doesn't a bet/call on that flop look way stronger than a 3bet? What could you legitimately have limped the button with, then bet/called with on the flop? His turn bet is super polarising to me, so we get losing hands to fold and winning hands to snap call if we shove on the turn.

If we 3bet the flop, we can get more chips in with a reasonable number of bluffs and big diamonds in our range. I don't see how we are making money on the turn. 

I personally am just rarely 3 betting the flop with anything maybe the actual nuts with no diamond/hearts, I think his x/r on the flop is strong and 3betting naked diamond combos would be a pretty big mistake imo my style is pretty cally in general rather than raisy if that makes sense, there also isnt many cards im worried about ott (obv we happened to find one here) so I was pretty happy about calling the flop. Deep stack tourney with incred structure and a good table I think getting it in on the flop while prob not a big mistake would be a mistake IMO.

FTR (I know what he has in this hand) 

[pleno1]

Doesn't a bet/call on that flop look way stronger than a 3bet? What could you legitimately have limped the button with, then bet/called with on the flop? His turn bet is super polarising to me, so we get losing hands to fold and winning hands to snap call if we shove on the turn.

If we 3bet the flop, we can get more chips in with a reasonable number of bluffs and big diamonds in our range. I don't see how we are making money on the turn. 

Disagree with this so much, I think the complete opposite.

B/c the flop keeps our range as wide as possible and I think that our perceived range will contain a bunch of pairs+Draws,
Flush draws, 2 pairs etc if expect my opponent to perceive that is 3b the flop with nutted hands.

But this is exactly why bluffing is so dangerous in poker it compeltely comes down to knowing how your opponent thinks. For example if Tom 3bet this flop or called you would think one thing and I'd think another. It's basically showing bluffing in spots where opponents could have the nuts and could either legit fast play or slow play.


Lesson learned... Only bluff with blockers where the opponent can't have it.

[pleno1]

Doesn't a bet/call on that flop look way stronger than a 3bet? What could you legitimately have limped the button with, then bet/called with on the flop? His turn bet is super polarising to me, so we get losing hands to fold and winning hands to snap call if we shove on the turn.

If we 3bet the flop, we can get more chips in with a reasonable number of bluffs and big diamonds in our range. I don't see how we are making money on the turn. 

I personally am just rarely 3 betting the flop with anything maybe the actual nuts with no diamond/hearts, I think his x/r on the flop is strong and 3betting naked diamond combos would be a pretty big mistake imo my style is pretty cally in general rather than raisy if that makes sense, there also isnt many cards im worried about ott (obv we happened to find one here) so I was pretty happy about calling the flop. Deep stack tourney with incred structure and a good table I think getting it in on the flop while prob not a big mistake would be a mistake IMO.

FTR (I know what he has in this hand) 

And yeah I agree here too pretty big mistake to gii otf and typical thing I see from regs that just assume something is standard but if they really look deeper into the hand will realise it's probably not good.

Also the fact he could randomly just be taking off with something ridiculous and find top pair ott and just station off 2 huge streets as there's a missed flush draw.

Position is just so important and this hand is one of the main reasons why.

I'd potentially ISO raise pre btw. Would prefer to limp a4dd

[Tal]

Pleno, the lesson is, if you're playing against me, don't overthink it

[Tal]

Doesn't a bet/call on that flop look way stronger than a 3bet? What could you legitimately have limped the button with, then bet/called with on the flop? His turn bet is super polarising to me, so we get losing hands to fold and winning hands to snap call if we shove on the turn.

If we 3bet the flop, we can get more chips in with a reasonable number of bluffs and big diamonds in our range. I don't see how we are making money on the turn. 

Disagree with this so much, I think the complete opposite.

B/c the flop keeps our range as wide as possible and I think that our perceived range will contain a bunch of pairs+Draws,
Flush draws, 2 pairs etc if expect my opponent to perceive that is 3b the flop with nutted hands.

But this is exactly why bluffing is so dangerous in poker it compeltely comes down to knowing how your opponent thinks. For example if Tom 3bet this flop or called you would think one thing and I'd think another. It's basically showing bluffing in spots where opponents could have the nuts and could either legit fast play or slow play.


Lesson learned... Only bluff with blockers where the opponent can't have it.

Isn't there a general point about bluffing into polarised ranges, though?

Maybe I'm just from a lower level of thinking, here (maybe...ahem...), but leading the turn is something I'd be doing with houses, complete air and not a lot else.

It's really interesting to read the views on this, though.

[TL900]

Doesn't a bet/call on that flop look way stronger than a 3bet? What could you legitimately have limped the button with, then bet/called with on the flop? His turn bet is super polarising to me, so we get losing hands to fold and winning hands to snap call if we shove on the turn.

If we 3bet the flop, we can get more chips in with a reasonable number of bluffs and big diamonds in our range. I don't see how we are making money on the turn.  

Disagree with this so much, I think the complete opposite.

B/c the flop keeps our range as wide as possible and I think that our perceived range will contain a bunch of pairs+Draws,
Flush draws, 2 pairs etc if expect my opponent to perceive that is 3b the flop with nutted hands.

But this is exactly why bluffing is so dangerous in poker it compeltely comes down to knowing how your opponent thinks. For example if Tom 3bet this flop or called you would think one thing and I'd think another. It's basically showing bluffing in spots where opponents could have the nuts and could either legit fast play or slow play.


Lesson learned... Only bluff with blockers where the opponent can't have it.

Isn't there a general point about bluffing into polarised ranges, though?

Maybe I'm just from a lower level of thinking, here (maybe...ahem...), but leading the turn is something I'd be doing with houses, complete air and not a lot else.

It's really interesting to read the views on this, though.

he has many many more "value" raises than bluffs though. Seems mental to x/r basically min into 2 people and take off with a bluff on 678dd when the board pairs ott we really dont beat much at all.

I wasnt happy about anything ott and I couldnt think of many hands that he would be betting turn and not jamming river with so made my decision whether to call/call or fold now basically and decided on the latter after a little tank.

Bare in mind I still have some boats/quads/good straights in my range aswell. My range isnt exactly weak when I bet/call the flop (that isnt enough of an argument to 3b the flop "to rep bluffs" tho imo  ) I'm still gona have some 9x diamond draws etc.

[Tal]

I would definitely fold the turn, then text someone, tell them the hand and lie that the villain showed me quads.

I absolutely agree with you, TL900, because I take the lead on the turn to be super strong, but the reference to being polarised is because I don't see why he'd play the hand this way with anything less than 67, unless it was absolutely nothing. I'm never getting it on on the turn unless I see something to convince me otherwise.

No visual info to help us, btw? Are you one of those folks who stares into space when playing lolivepokerz or can you offer some insight on what you saw? Go on, paint a picture.

Stand by my first post on this I think. Who is this Pleno bloke anyway?