Road to being a pro

[Woodsey]

I feel like I know what you're going through. 5 years ago I was stumbling through university whilst my poker infactuation grew, not enjoying it at all and not inspired by anything in my course. Whilst poker was the polar opposite - a completely compelling game that I just HAD to succeed at. And I was absolutely inspired by the lifestyle that it could bring.

I know that whatever the right thing to do is, you won't listen to any advice here. I had everyone telling me one thing and I knew they were probably right, I should get my degree, but in the end, you're always gonna do what your heart says. My heart was in poker, not my degree. And I dropped out after just over a year.

I'm not the best person to speak to because I got extremely lucky and it's actully looked like being the right decision (or at least the wrong decision that worked out well). 99% of people who took my line would probably be seriously screwed now. And even the 1% who do get lucky might be fucked in 5 years. I think my years in poker are seriously numbered, almost certainly <5, and what am I gonna do then? The idea is I'll have enough capital, enough passion, enough contacts, and enough intelligence / life experience to be able to make something else work, but that's all very hazy isn't it?

I would never recommend anyone to try and become a professional poker player. I would recommend being a professional player though!

Basically I think you'll end up doing what you want to do. And I can already see like that's settling for a 2.2 whilst pouring your heart into poker. So advice from all these veteran gamblers, and clever older folk like Tikay will sadly fall on deaf ears.

I wrote to Neil Channing back then and asked him for advice, and the first thing he said to me was "Get the degree!". I thought at the time, yes neil that's good advice, I'll do that, thanks Neil, appreciate that. The heart always rules the brain.

Good luck.

ps. forget all that nonsense about playing GTO in live low stakes cash games. You should basically never be balanced lol.

The thing about poker players is you will never really know if you have done the right thing until either you get old, or you get out of poker with a lump of money big enough to help you into the next phase of your life.

[Woodsey]

I remember back in the day (fk I sound old lol) when I was winning loads, and I had 2 years where I made more money from poker than I did in my job (I have a decent job) thinking about doing poker full time. Now I know not doing it was one of the best decisions in my life as I'd probably be skint now lol.

[Longines]

Off the top of my head I think if you are earning 50k in a job you are in the top 10% of earners in the UK.

Pretty close. £60,500 for a single person gets you in the top 10%.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/mar/25/uk-incomes-how-salary-compare

[tikay]

I feel like I know what you're going through. 5 years ago I was stumbling through university whilst my poker infactuation grew, not enjoying it at all and not inspired by anything in my course. Whilst poker was the polar opposite - a completely compelling game that I just HAD to succeed at. And I was absolutely inspired by the lifestyle that it could bring.

I know that whatever the right thing to do is, you won't listen to any advice here. I had everyone telling me one thing and I knew they were probably right, I should get my degree, but in the end, you're always gonna do what your heart says. My heart was in poker, not my degree. And I dropped out after just over a year.

I'm not the best person to speak to because I got extremely lucky and it's actully looked like being the right decision (or at least the wrong decision that worked out well). 99% of people who took my line would probably be seriously screwed now. And even the 1% who do get lucky might be fucked in 5 years. I think my years in poker are seriously numbered, almost certainly <5, and what am I gonna do then? The idea is I'll have enough capital, enough passion, enough contacts, and enough intelligence / life experience to be able to make something else work, but that's all very hazy isn't it?

I would never recommend anyone to try and become a professional poker player. I would recommend being a professional player though!

Basically I think you'll end up doing what you want to do. And I can already see like that's settling for a 2.2 whilst pouring your heart into poker. So advice from all these veteran gamblers, and clever older folk like Tikay will sadly fall on deaf ears.

I wrote to Neil Channing back then and asked him for advice, and the first thing he said to me was "Get the degree!". I thought at the time, yes neil that's good advice, I'll do that, thanks Neil, appreciate that. The heart always rules the brain.

Good luck.

ps. forget all that nonsense about playing GTO in live low stakes cash games. You should basically never be balanced lol.

Great Post Alex, & no, it''s highly unlikely your advice will be heeded. Young people rarely listen to elders, I was the same, so were you, we almost all were. But I'd have felt bad if I had not said what I did.

It's bizarre really, when you think about it. Half the world (genuinely) would give their right arm for the chance to study for a Degree @ Uni, so if someone gets that chance, I sort of feel they ought to give it their best. It's not that long, in the context of our working life really, & it's hugely +EV. Spending 75% of available time on poker & 25% on studying took my breath away, it really did.

I wish Mr King Push nothing but goodwill, I'm not having a swipe at him, not at all, I just find it all a bit sad really. Poker, as Phil Bull once described horse racing, is the great irrelevance.

What % of poker players make enough to earn a living? 5%? 2%?

What % even make a profit? 25%?

Anyway, good luck to our man, whatever he does.
   

[arbboy]

I feel like I know what you're going through. 5 years ago I was stumbling through university whilst my poker infactuation grew, not enjoying it at all and not inspired by anything in my course. Whilst poker was the polar opposite - a completely compelling game that I just HAD to succeed at. And I was absolutely inspired by the lifestyle that it could bring.

I know that whatever the right thing to do is, you won't listen to any advice here. I had everyone telling me one thing and I knew they were probably right, I should get my degree, but in the end, you're always gonna do what your heart says. My heart was in poker, not my degree. And I dropped out after just over a year.

I'm not the best person to speak to because I got extremely lucky and it's actully looked like being the right decision (or at least the wrong decision that worked out well). 99% of people who took my line would probably be seriously screwed now. And even the 1% who do get lucky might be fucked in 5 years. I think my years in poker are seriously numbered, almost certainly <5, and what am I gonna do then? The idea is I'll have enough capital, enough passion, enough contacts, and enough intelligence / life experience to be able to make something else work, but that's all very hazy isn't it?

I would never recommend anyone to try and become a professional poker player. I would recommend being a professional player though!

Basically I think you'll end up doing what you want to do. And I can already see like that's settling for a 2.2 whilst pouring your heart into poker. So advice from all these veteran gamblers, and clever older folk like Tikay will sadly fall on deaf ears.

I wrote to Neil Channing back then and asked him for advice, and the first thing he said to me was "Get the degree!". I thought at the time, yes neil that's good advice, I'll do that, thanks Neil, appreciate that. The heart always rules the brain.

Good luck.

ps. forget all that nonsense about playing GTO in live low stakes cash games. You should basically never be balanced lol.

Can I ask, having just finished uni myself and with the poker interest rising all the time, what's your piece of advice for making the next step up in the game? I currently play smaller buy-in live tournaments but have profited fairly consistently over the past year or so.

Sat into a major mtt and bink a 6 figure score then kick on from there.  All joking aside survival bias in poker is just incredibly massive.  The long term is so long there are so many long term 'winning' players who are actually big real cash 'losers' who never get close to seeing the long term and give up/quit/go skint etc etc yet they do nothing wrong technically at all just run bad over a relatively small sample.

The other thing to remember about gambling for a living is the sheer amount of volume you have to turn over every day/week/month just to make your margin.  Plus this doesn't account for variance either. From a sports betting angle which i predominately do let's say you have a 5% edge in your chosen area of expertise (this is a good return in 2014 as TFT is returning less than this over a big sample of bets mainly from decent pro gamblers).  This is obviously not a fixed 5% return every day but you will be subject to variance.

If you choose to 'earn' £3k a month you will need to bet/invest £60k a month or £2k a day every day of the month to in theory make £3k.  This does not take into account rake/bf commission/expensves if you adjust the example to poker which is dead money and lost to your roll. It also assumes you have the same 5% edge on every investment which you, in reality, will not and will therefore have to stake more than the stated amount each day as your edge is lower. The bottom line is it is not easy to keep finding these spots where you have such an edge and to secondly be able to get money on (in poker terms get into the games where the value is) to realise your £3k a month salary.  On top of this you are open to the dreaded variance which doesn't gtd any salary at all in any month in real cash terms but just an EV salary of £3k in my example.  

If you go down the pub in 10 years time when most of your 'normal' mates will be earning £3k a month with their degrees and you will be telling them you are betting £2k a day (maybe a lot more if your edge falls to 2% you will have to bet £5k a day to make your £3k a month salary) and they will look at you like most of my non gambling mates do like you are a total degen.

It's not impossible to do it but it's getting harder and harder each and every year whatever form of gambling you wish to partake in for a living.  GL whatever you decide to do.

[Longines]

I remember back in the day (fk I sound old lol) when I was winning loads, and I had 2 years where I made more money from poker than I did in my job (I have a decent job) thinking about doing poker full time. Now I know not doing it was one of the best decisions in my life as I'd probably be skint now lol.

This. Plus there is so much confirmation bias - all the multi-hundred page diaries from BITB, Alex and all the other blondes who have made chunks make it sound so simple; study, play, bink. Diaries that detail how and why the vast majority of players are "a bit shit" are not as appealing to write for some reason ;-)

[mondatoo]

As Alex said, doesn't really matter if the top 100 players all post in your diary saying don't do it, pretty much every single person would still go ahead and do what they think is best anyways, it's just human nature.

For an interesting read, if you find the maths side interesting have a read of this

http://www.nsdpoker.com/2011/01/mtt-pros/

[Sulphur man]

Another really good post Alex this diary is brimming with great advice. I actually
thought about posting up a really old one from Alex when he started out as I thought
it was a similar to this blog.

As is pointed out you will read all this and soak it up although truly you already know what it
is you want to do. Life is short, to short to have regrets. As long as you actually do put in
a serious amount of work you will enjoy it and improve as a person while having some
amazing experiences along the way.

Through playing poker I have met and become very good friends with some great people.
As a whole the community is great. Just reading through this blog makes me think
these are good people. Life is about balance find that and things will work out as best they can.

[nirvana]

And even the 1% who do get lucky might be fucked in 5 years.

You've changed so much, swearing and becoming a scouser

I think you and a handful of others are exceptions to the rule..ldo. Most of the guys in my local casino who 'make a living playing poker' live at home with their mums..some of them are quite old, others have managed to get their own gaff but dress like chompy and don't tip.

Having said that, very much a first world problem. We live in a society that allows any young person to have a blast on their way to bustoville with little real downside and so I think Kingpush should go pro in pretty short order, glgl

[AlunB]

What % of poker players make enough to earn a living? 5%? 2%?

What % even make a profit? 25%?
   

You know the answer to this already I suspect. Around 3-5% are better than break even and less than 1% earn enough to make a living would be my guess.

[MANTIS01]

And even the 1% who do get lucky might be fucked in 5 years.

You've changed so much, swearing and becoming a scouser

I think you and a handful of others are exceptions to the rule..ldo. Most of the guys in my local casino who 'make a living playing poker' live at home with their mums..some of them are quite old, others have managed to get their own gaff but dress like chompy and don't tip.

Having said that, very much a first world problem. We live in a society that allows any young person to have a blast on their way to bustoville with little real downside and so I think Kingpush should go pro in pretty short order, glgl

Yo, I would describe living with your mum as a pretty big downside actually. I love my mum but the thought of living with her makes me shudder. I've had nightmares about walking across her white Axminster carpet in muddy boots before now. And think you're bringing girls back? Forget it! Let alone the constant interference with questions like "gambling again are you?" or "is that what you went to university for?" Nah I think this is a serious point and Kingpush needs to confirm if living with mum is part of the strategy on his road to being a pro.

[nirvana]

And even the 1% who do get lucky might be fucked in 5 years.

You've changed so much, swearing and becoming a scouser

I think you and a handful of others are exceptions to the rule..ldo. Most of the guys in my local casino who 'make a living playing poker' live at home with their mums..some of them are quite old, others have managed to get their own gaff but dress like chompy and don't tip.

Having said that, very much a first world problem. We live in a society that allows any young person to have a blast on their way to bustoville with little real downside and so I think Kingpush should go pro in pretty short order, glgl

Yo, I would describe living with your mum as a pretty big downside actually. I love my mum but the thought of living with her makes me shudder. I've had nightmares about walking across her white Axminster carpet in muddy boots before now. And think you're bringing girls back? Forget it! Let alone the constant interference with questions like "gambling again are you?" or "is that what you went to university for?" Nah I think this is a serious point and Kingpush needs to confirm if living with mum is part of the strategy on his road to being a pro.

Yo, yo, crazy life man. Start with half jokes and then you have to seriously reflect.. you basically have to commit to living at home for ever. Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeee it

[tikay]

What % of poker players make enough to earn a living? 5%? 2%?

What % even make a profit? 25%?
   

You know the answer to this already I suspect. Around 3-5% are better than break even and less than 1% earn enough to make a living would be my guess.

Guilty as charged. Was trying, I suppose, to give Mr King a reality check. Don't know the bloke, but I want him to make the right decision. 

So many of us set off down that road to the poker dream, making a decent living at it. Poker seems to make us think that way, it grips us in a vice of hope & delusion.

[pleno1]

but the thing Tikay, Alun et al really don't follow is that a HUGE % of players could be successful, could make a living and could be winning professionals.

Looking at the top 10 guys in the UK

Trigg
Moorman
Jareth East
Charlie Combes
Toby Lewis
Connor Beresford
Chris Brammer
Middy
Myself

None of the above are your stereotypical geniuses. None went to award winning universities or I suspect were even the cleverest in their class at school, I for sure wasn't.

Almost every "lad" that likes poker could probably relate to one of the above in that list. Out of each of those 10 there was probably 1000 very similar kids who liked poker but for whatever reason didn't get into it, or didn't want to work hard enough.

The guys above rose to the top because they grinded so much, Trigg, Moorman, Brammer, Middy all played so much when they were learning, grinding day and night and learned the game together. Connor for example is a supernova elite player who went from liking mtts to studying ranges every day and getting really solid. I went from losing at 5$ sngs to learning cash games and devoting my life to poker.


Look at redarmi, arbboy, dubai etc, I'm sure they are intelligent guys, but again there will be literally 10s of thousands who can relate to them. So many guys who punt week on week on football, if they spent 60 hours a week studying form like redarmi suggested earlier then they too could potentially be as equally successful.

OP is showing the desire, he is showing signs of doing well and showing a lot of hunger. Granted its very easy to show that initial desire, the next 12 months will be the real big test, and if he spends 5 days a week really engrossing himself in poker, perhaps getting a coach to help him get to the next level and really pushes hmiself there is no reason why he cant be successful.

If you want to be a professional, then as Alex said earlier you have to be professional about it. You have to play a minimum of 5 days a week, have to study 2 days a week, poker is perhaps one of the toughest graduate schemes out there, but all of the tools are so easily accessible, the graduate % rate is very low, but thats because there's nobody to kick you up the arse like there is at university, in truth its one of the easiest ways to make a top 5% living and almost everybody could do it if they really wanted to.

Some just want it more than others.

[tikay]

but the thing Tikay, Alun et al really don't follow is that a HUGE % of players could be successful, could make a living and could be winning professionals.

Looking at the top 10 guys in the UK

Trigg
Moorman
Jareth East
Charlie Combes
Toby Lewis
Connor Beresford
Chris Brammer
Middy
Myself

None of the above are your stereotypical geniuses. None went to award winning universities or I suspect were even the cleverest in their class at school, I for sure wasn't.

Almost every "lad" that likes poker could probably relate to one of the above in that list. Out of each of those 10 there was probably 1000 very similar kids who liked poker but for whatever reason didn't get into it, or didn't want to work hard enough.

The guys above rose to the top because they grinded so much, Trigg, Moorman, Brammer, Middy all played so much when they were learning, grinding day and night and learned the game together. Connor for example is a supernova elite player who went from liking mtts to studying ranges every day and getting really solid. I went from losing at 5$ sngs to learning cash games and devoting my life to poker.


Look at redarmi, arbboy, dubai etc, I'm sure they are intelligent guys, but again there will be literally 10s of thousands who can relate to them. So many guys who punt week on week on football, if they spent 60 hours a week studying form like redarmi suggested earlier then they too could potentially be as equally successful.

OP is showing the desire, he is showing signs of doing well and showing a lot of hunger. Granted its very easy to show that initial desire, the next 12 months will be the real big test, and if he spends 5 days a week really engrossing himself in poker, perhaps getting a coach to help him get to the next level and really pushes hmiself there is no reason why he cant be successful.

If you want to be a professional, then as Alex said earlier you have to be professional about it. You have to play a minimum of 5 days a week, have to study 2 days a week, poker is perhaps one of the toughest graduate schemes out there, but all of the tools are so easily accessible, the graduate % rate is very low, but thats because there's nobody to kick you up the arse like there is at university, in truth its one of the easiest ways to make a top 5% living and almost everybody could do it if they really wanted to.

Some just want it more than others.

By definition, Patrick, that (enboldened) cannot be true.

More people COULD be BETTER players, yes, & that includes Mr King. Statistically, most will fall by the wayside. They will. When we are talking with young people at the start of the journey, we ought to be straight with them.

And I don't believe, not for a second, that those guys you named (or you) were successful because "they grinded a lot". They became successful for all sorts of reasons, including hard work & talent. But grinding a lot would not help if you are not learning the right things. I know plenty who play 50 hours per week. They are of the same ability as they always were though. They are not learning, they are playing. 

I could practice my golf swing 24/7. I'd still be shite though, as I'm just ingraining my weaknesses & bad habits in my muscle memory.