QQ on the button

[KingPush]

http://weaktight.com/6986855

Never fold here? Think turn bet is essentially shove so our range should be really tight, what would you call with given the flat of the 4bet here?

[AlexMartin]

you need cold 4b stats, dont expect many to go unloading bluffs/worse when your range looks extremely strong.

[PaintingByNumbers]

After quickly looking at the numbers and our 4b Flat Range (are we Flatting AA? are we 5b KK?), I think TT is borderline on the Turn and JJ on the River.
I don't see why we have to treat the Turn bet as a Shove.

In my experience, I would not assume we need to defend as widely as possible (my numbers likely haven't done that anyway) versus a Cold 4b from the blinds at NL25 Zoom.
I don't know how our opponent would continue on the Turn here, given an aggressive range.

[KingPush]

After quickly looking at the numbers and our 4b Flat Range (are we Flatting AA? are we 5b KK?), I think TT is borderline on the Turn and JJ on the River.
I don't see why we have to treat the Turn bet as a Shove.

In my experience, I would not assume we need to defend as widely as possible (my numbers likely haven't done that anyway) versus a Cold 4b from the blinds at NL25 Zoom.
I don't know how our opponent would continue on the Turn here, given an aggressive range.

think tt is a fold on the turn here. Treating it like a shove as look at river spr any fold there would be terrible. My range for flatting 4bet is QQ-TT, 99, AQs+, KQs, AQo+ and some AA

[Oxford_HRV]

i think villain will 4b TT+ AKs from the blinds

villain should not continue AKs on turn, they should know you have a pair now, and therefore only betting for stacks.

turn bet definitely shows huge strength and we should fold TT sometimes JJ.

going with it on the turn could be bad, its clear i think that villain is aware you are not folding and is repping QQ+

you are beating the same combo of hands you are losing to if he treats all over pairs the same. i dont think villain will flat TT or JJ pre. so flip a coin and choose all in or fold.

[PaintingByNumbers]

After quickly looking at the numbers and our 4b Flat Range (are we Flatting AA? are we 5b KK?), I think TT is borderline on the Turn and JJ on the River.
I don't see why we have to treat the Turn bet as a Shove.

In my experience, I would not assume we need to defend as widely as possible (my numbers likely haven't done that anyway) versus a Cold 4b from the blinds at NL25 Zoom.
I don't know how our opponent would continue on the Turn here, given an aggressive range.

think tt is a fold on the turn here. Treating it like a shove as look at river spr any fold there would be terrible. My range for flatting 4bet is QQ-TT, 99, AQs+, KQs, AQo+ and some AA

I think with that range, we 'should' be defending most of our Tens on the River, and so Queens is in the upper half of our defending range.
We could easily decide they are still a Fold, but then I think someone must be making some big mistake(s) earlier in the hand.

A Turn Shove might be good to deny the 7-14% Eq of a bluff, but having a low River SPR just means we 'should' Fold rarely, not never. Or am I doing something wrong?

I would tend to Fold aggressively Preflop versus most opponents. Normally, our general impression of the type of player we against is going to be more useful than his 'Cold 4b' stat with the sample size we are usually going to have.

you need cold 4b stats, dont expect many to go unloading bluffs/worse when your range looks extremely strong.

Surely the Cold 4b Range should be even stronger?

[SuuPRlim]

can you fold preflop?

readless at 25zoom id be tempted

[KingPush]

After quickly looking at the numbers and our 4b Flat Range (are we Flatting AA? are we 5b KK?), I think TT is borderline on the Turn and JJ on the River.
I don't see why we have to treat the Turn bet as a Shove.

In my experience, I would not assume we need to defend as widely as possible (my numbers likely haven't done that anyway) versus a Cold 4b from the blinds at NL25 Zoom.
I don't know how our opponent would continue on the Turn here, given an aggressive range.

think tt is a fold on the turn here. Treating it like a shove as look at river spr any fold there would be terrible. My range for flatting 4bet is QQ-TT, 99, AQs+, KQs, AQo+ and some AA

I think with that range, we 'should' be defending most of our Tens on the River, and so Queens is in the upper half of our defending range.
We could easily decide they are still a Fold, but then I think someone must be making some big mistake(s) earlier in the hand.

A Turn Shove might be good to deny the 7-14% Eq of a bluff, but having a low River SPR just means we 'should' Fold rarely, not never. Or am I doing something wrong?

I would tend to Fold aggressively Preflop versus most opponents. Normally, our general impression of the type of player we against is going to be more useful than his 'Cold 4b' stat with the sample size we are usually going to have.

you need cold 4b stats, dont expect many to go unloading bluffs/worse when your range looks extremely strong.

Surely the Cold 4b Range should be even stronger?

Why do you think we should defend with most tens here? I don't think we can call and fold river ever because we'll be losing so much if we do it at all unless it''s like one combo or something.

Don't think we can ever fold QQ here just way too tight and don't think people are playing that tight at 25z, saying that I think gii would be a mistake.

[PaintingByNumbers]

Why do you think we should defend with most tens here?

What I meant was that, given the preflop defending range you stated earlier, we would need to defend most of our tens on the River.
I agree with you that stacking off with tens feels like a mistake on the River.
In my opinion, this is because most players here will have a very tight Cold 4b Range and we can exploit this by Folding very aggressively preflop.
If you think that many will be much wider than this but then not follow through on the Turn, then using your preflop range (I think I would design a different one versus a good player, but yours could be correct) but folding Queens on this Turn seems good.
It depends how we have decided to exploit our opponents, and I don't think you have offered an opinion on this?

Postflop I would be just trying to defend according to the maths as, in my experience, a sizable proportion of the player base will play aggressively when they are in this situation (which won't often be here due to the low % of hands they Cold 4b.) I mean by this that they could be shoving AK, some small amount of Axs/etc, and some confused JJ/TT.

I don't think we can call and fold river ever because we'll be losing so much if we do it at all unless it''s like one combo or something.

Our Optimal Calling Frequency on the River is 1-(13.22/(13.22+49.67)) = 0.789, or 79%. Which would be about 6 combos in the example I gave of using your preflop range.

If we don't ever Fold on the River, then what incentive is their for the SB to Bluff the River?
This leverages his Turn Bet, thus giving him a discount on any Turn Bluff.

Of course, some players might not be able to resist bluffing at the pot on the River, and some might decide it's never worth it, but these are not assumptions I am making.

Don't think we can ever fold QQ here just way too tight and don't think people are playing that tight at 25z, saying that I think gii would be a mistake.

I would probably call with QQ and fold JJ.
This makes me very exploitable, and Dave even more so!

However, your strategy of calling a wide (though maybe 'correct') range preflop and folding widely on the Turn (I know you didn't actually and are just second guessing yourself) is also very exploitable.
It's just that we don't expect to be exploited.

Hopefully, this thread highlights how effective Cold 4b can be against players who aren't expecting it.

[KingPush]

Why do you think we should defend with most tens here?

What I meant was that, given the preflop defending range you stated earlier, we would need to defend most of our tens on the River.
I agree with you that stacking off with tens feels like a mistake on the River.
In my opinion, this is because most players here will have a very tight Cold 4b Range and we can exploit this by Folding very aggressively preflop.
If you think that many will be much wider than this but then not follow through on the Turn, then using your preflop range (I think I would design a different one versus a good player, but yours could be correct) but folding Queens on this Turn seems good.
It depends how we have decided to exploit our opponents, and I don't think you have offered an opinion on this?

Postflop I would be just trying to defend according to the maths as, in my experience, a sizable proportion of the player base will play aggressively when they are in this situation (which won't often be here due to the low % of hands they Cold 4b.) I mean by this that they could be shoving AK, some small amount of Axs/etc, and some confused JJ/TT.

I don't think we can call and fold river ever because we'll be losing so much if we do it at all unless it''s like one combo or something.

Our Optimal Calling Frequency on the River is 1-(13.22/(13.22+49.67)) = 0.789, or 79%. Which would be about 6 combos in the example I gave of using your preflop range.

If we don't ever Fold on the River, then what incentive is their for the SB to Bluff the River?
This leverages his Turn Bet, thus giving him a discount on any Turn Bluff.

Of course, some players might not be able to resist bluffing at the pot on the River, and some might decide it's never worth it, but these are not assumptions I am making.

Don't think we can ever fold QQ here just way too tight and don't think people are playing that tight at 25z, saying that I think gii would be a mistake.

I would probably call with QQ and fold JJ.
This makes me very exploitable, and Dave even more so!

However, your strategy of calling a wide (though maybe 'correct') range preflop and folding widely on the Turn (I know you didn't actually and are just second guessing yourself) is also very exploitable.
It's just that we don't expect to be exploited.

Hopefully, this thread highlights how effective Cold 4b can be against players who aren't expecting it.

If we're folding 99-JJ and KQ+ we're to have an unbelievably tight range on the flop and we'll just have AA and QQ on the turn, this will be good for our blue line buit I can't see how this is will be a winning strategy long term considering I'm 3betting so much here. I mean do we really think villain is 4betting less than 2%? And with a linear range? I've said this before but I think the river is pretty much a non decision, the hand ends on the turn for me and I should have either jammed or called never to fold. If you think we'll be minus 24.4 in EV every hand we call and then fold the river we need to be folding less than 21% for me. This formula only works if we take the river in isolation but as poker is multi street it doesn't. Calling with 99 and TT preflop is pretty much to set mine, I don't think calling twice with either of these hands will be good.

[Honeybadger]

Got lots to say, but not sure whether to spend the time, since it seems to me that you don't really listen to what people are saying - especially those like PaintingByNumbers who really does know what he is talking about and will have spent some real time on his advice. As I said in your other thread... listen to this guy and try to work out why he is saying what he is saying, rather than just instantly arguing back.

My range for flatting 4bet is QQ-TT, 99, AQs+, KQs, AQo+ and some AA

So I will just restrict myself, for the time being, to commenting on the above quote.

If you are 3betting hands like 99/TT, KQ and AQ BTNvsCO then you are 3betting far too wide. This might very well be a good exploitative adjustment to the opponents you are playing against, and if this is why you are doing it then fine. But from your posts/blog you seem to want to base your play along GTO lines, and so I am not sure whether you are deliberately making an exploitative adjustment or whether you just misunderstand the theory. In fact, quite a lot of your thinking is like this - you have either got the theory wrong, or you are playing exploitatively. And you don't seem 100% clear in your own mind when you are trying to stick to GTO and when you are using exploitative plays.

If you are 3betting as wide as it appears you are BTNvCO then it is probably fine from an exploitative POV. But be aware that you are 'opening your legs' - as indeed you are whenever you choose an exploitative strategy. If the blinds or the CO 4bet with anywhere approaching good ranges you are going to be put in spots where you cannot help but lose (theoretical) money. This will either be because you fold too much preflop, call wide pre but fold too much postflop... or simply call down pre and post with roughly correct GTO frequencies but still lose money overall simply because your preflop range is far too wide and you cannot overcome this. I mean, I wouldn't stress about it too much since the vast majority of your opponents are not going to play well, but since you seem so focussed on playing and understanding GTO then you should give some thought to it.

Sorry if the first bit of my post seems harsh - please keep in mind I have just gone to the trouble of spending 20 mins of my life typing out some advice for you though... I would not waste my time simply to put you down.

[Honeybadger]

Just to edit something I say in the post above...

When I said 'if you are 3betting 98/TT AQ and KQ you are 3betting far too wide', I should really have said a bit too wide. I am assuming that you are not using a completely linear range as a default btw, and that you'll have some 3bet 'bluffs' in your range.

[PaintingByNumbers]

Sorry if the first bit of my post seems harsh - please keep in mind I have just gone to the trouble of spending 20 mins of my life typing out some advice for you though... I would not waste my time simply to put you down.

Not a waste, you love it really...and it is harsh.

I don't 3b 99 and KQs by default BTN/CO but I wouldn't say it is too wide. I do think it is better to assume players won't attack enough at this level so we can Fold at the margins though.

If we're folding 99-JJ and KQ+ we're to have an unbelievably tight range on the flop and we'll just have AA and QQ on the turn, this will be good for our blue line buit I can't see how this is will be a winning strategy long term considering I'm 3betting so much here. I mean do we really think villain is 4betting less than 2%? And with a linear range?

You could well be right about this, my Range for Flatting the 4b was based on my view of a complete unknown at 25 NL Zoom. Cold 4b is still a fairly 'advanced' move, even for the somewhat aggressive tight players. A sizeable minority will be employing the tactic, reasonably or not, and against these players we would want to be defending our 3b range (more) 'correctly'.

Calling with 99 and TT preflop is pretty much to set mine, I don't think calling twice with either of these hands will be good.

I wouldn't call just to set mine here, but it would be inconsistent to both not consider it and to Fold aggressively due to our perception about the v tight range of the Cold 4b.

To not be exploitable Post Flop you need to defend (12.37/(12.37+5.9))*(24.17/(24.17+12.75))*(49.67)/(49.67+13.22))=0.35, or 35% of your range.
The range you gave earlier had 60 combos (using half of AA), which means you would need to defend the best 21 on the River.

You seem to be trying to prevent yourself from being exploited by the Cold 4b but not by the Turn barrel, and you don't give any reasoning for this.

The OP seems to be questioning whether you needed to Call with QQ on the Turn as you probably feel that it was too weak to call. If this was the case then you need to work out what you could have done differently.
Three different possibilities have been argues in this thread: Fold Pre cos he is likely Cold 4b very tight, Fold Turn cos he will probably stab and give up, or Call Turn/River and hope he is not at the top of his range.
The choice is up to you, but we all have to learn to explain why we make the choices in order for us to test them and so improve.

I've said this before but I think the river is pretty much a non decision, the hand ends on the turn for me and I should have either jammed or called never to fold. If you think we'll be minus 24.4 in EV every hand we call and then fold the river we need to be folding less than 21% for me. This formula only works if we take the river in isolation but as poker is multi street it doesn't. Calling with 99 and TT preflop is pretty much to set mine, I don't think calling twice with either of these hands will be good.

Once you are at the River you do take it in isolation, given the range you have arrived there with.

I know poker is a multi street game, which is why I have Folded the weakest hands on every street in proportion (given my own assumption, based on previous comments, that you were after a theory based reply) to the bet size.

[SuuPRlim]

Game Theory is very important, obviously. If you're play is actually Game Theory Optimal then play for 5,000,000 hands and the worst you can do is pay half the rake (which will be a lot lol) I gte you that if you play vs me GTO then you'll beat me, cos i don't have the understanding or the will to beat you.

Fortunately for me, most people use game theory as a justification for plays, and not a reason.

This makes them very easy to play because not only do i know they're going to make mistakes I also know pretty much what mistakes they will make, and where they will make them.

Someone told me today that if 264 people did a skydive with linked arms then they would cause enough drag that none of them would require a parachute, theoretically that's great...but you're not going to find 264 so utterly and rigidly convinced by the theory that they will willingly jump out of a plane with no parachute. I would be slightly concerned from your HH's on here that you are governed a bit to tightly by the theory and this might hold you back in some spots.

[KingPush]

Got lots to say, but not sure whether to spend the time, since it seems to me that you don't really listen to what people are saying - especially those like PaintingByNumbers who really does know what he is talking about and will have spent some real time on his advice. As I said in your other thread... listen to this guy and try to work out why he is saying what he is saying, rather than just instantly arguing back.

Apologies if that's how it comes across. I genuinely do listen to it but if I don't agree with it then it seems false to say yes or just not reply.

@paintingbynumbers I have no perception of villain having an extremely tight 4betting range here. Also if we're basing our decisions on pot odds, (I think that is what the equations are right?) Then why are we not doing this preflop as well? Personally I disagree with the method of calculating what we do based on the odds we are getting, yes they are part of the EV equation but so is equity and the amount something occurs. For example are we going to fold 33% of our range if the villain bets pot with a 100% of his range on the flop and them check folds 80% of his range on the turn?

Also understand everyone's points about folding qq. We can fold this here and win at an easier rate as I feel like this is just trying to get into spots where we have a definite equity advantage and so can win big at showdown. This is definitely a winning style at low stakes but I'm trying to implement a game theoretical style where both lines should be 0 if villain is playing perfectly. If I fold qq here my redline will be going down too much. I know this is exactly what lil Dave is saying I'm messing up my game with haha but I genuinely believe this is the way I'll be able to make money playing this game in the long run.