UKIPT London v GUKPT Luton

[The Camel]

Agree with some of the points and often avoid Stars festivals tournies and live poker in general because of the hassles of buying in, PS Live, side events selling out, cash games full. Much prefer a smaller festival where I know I can get a seat in a cash game or a side event if I bust.

However, factors you didn't consider. GUKPT re-entry (up to 4 bullets), UKIPT is a straight freezeout. If you are comfortably rolled for multiple bullets then this gives you a big advantage in GUKPT. If you bust strong player on day one, he goes to the cash desk buys in again and gets an extra life

Field size. UKIPT is much bigger, more up top, when you get the final it is likely to be a weaker/softer field imo.

Those drink holder/phone chargers on the table and the blue neon stripe around the edge didn't pay for themselves you know!

Disagree about field strength.

Average Pokerstars player is going to be a lot stronger than average Luton regular (Edna Adams excepted obv)

You might get really lucky at Luton and draw Tom Myland, Dick Lynch, Chompy and Nirvana #pokerplayersheaven

I'd say that to generalise they would play differently. GUKPT players more solid, more live experience. UKIPT better fundamentals, possibly more experience of MTTs over all, but often too aggressive and lacking in live experience. Also the UKIPT directly before the EPT will have players coming for the full festival. However there all kinds of sats for UKIPT for small money so all kind of people get in these Pokerstars 1k tourneys (for example I'd wager the Estrellas before EPT Barcelona is one of the softest of the year in Europe) - having lots of sats is a plus for UKIPT and a negative for GUKPT.

Agree with most of your points esp. on rake, but I think you are drastically underestimating how much being a re-entry makes the field tougher, particularly when you get to the money, a much higher proportion of good players will remain in the tournaments.

I definitely hear what you're saying about re entries.

I hate them obviously. Definitely would make a rec think twice about pulling up in the first place if he knew Sam Grafton, Toby Lewis and the boys were all happy to have 4 entries.

But the fact the overall field strength is higher in UKIPTs means that final tables are probably of similar texture.

2 or 3 pros, 3 or 4 solid regs and 1 or 2 recreational players.

Look at any ft from either tour and those estimations won't be far wrong.

[scotty77]

Yeah while a lot of the guys at the table are miserable, off the table its a different story. Both recs and regs go to EPTs for fun, that's why Barcelona is huge and London is tiny.  They go for the chance to play Lodden on a TV table.  Stars do a lot in events outside of the poker but obviously some players have no interest in that so don't get to see any of that value. That's part of the reason why big online beasts punt it off live cos they are hungover or wanna go do stuff too.

The cover the costs of the filming of the TV shows and stream which are huge but can reap big rewards. I was speaking to someone at DTD recently who had been playing for 3 months and they only got into poker after watching Vicky's FT.

This kind of content will attract new blood far better than a guy in a foam sharks head randomly turning up.

The entire experience for recs is far better in a stars comp, just not when they are at the table IMO.

[bergeroo]

Agree with some of the points and often avoid Stars festivals tournies and live poker in general because of the hassles of buying in, PS Live, side events selling out, cash games full. Much prefer a smaller festival where I know I can get a seat in a cash game or a side event if I bust.

However, factors you didn't consider. GUKPT re-entry (up to 4 bullets), UKIPT is a straight freezeout. If you are comfortably rolled for multiple bullets then this gives you a big advantage in GUKPT. If you bust strong player on day one, he goes to the cash desk buys in again and gets an extra life

Field size. UKIPT is much bigger, more up top, when you get the final it is likely to be a weaker/softer field imo.

Those drink holder/phone chargers on the table and the blue neon stripe around the edge didn't pay for themselves you know!

Disagree about field strength.

Average Pokerstars player is going to be a lot stronger than average Luton regular (Edna Adams excepted obv)

You might get really lucky at Luton and draw Tom Myland, Dick Lynch, Chompy and Nirvana #pokerplayersheaven

I'd say that to generalise they would play differently. GUKPT players more solid, more live experience. UKIPT better fundamentals, possibly more experience of MTTs over all, but often too aggressive and lacking in live experience. Also the UKIPT directly before the EPT will have players coming for the full festival. However there all kinds of sats for UKIPT for small money so all kind of people get in these Pokerstars 1k tourneys (for example I'd wager the Estrellas before EPT Barcelona is one of the softest of the year in Europe) - having lots of sats is a plus for UKIPT and a negative for GUKPT.

Agree with most of your points esp. on rake, but I think you are drastically underestimating how much being a re-entry makes the field tougher, particularly when you get to the money, a much higher proportion of good players will remain in the tournaments.

I definitely hear what you're saying about re entries.

I hate them obviously. Definitely would make a rec think twice about pulling up in the first place if he knew Sam Grafton, Toby Lewis and the boys were all happy to have 4 entries.

But the fact the overall field strength is higher in UKIPTs means that final tables are probably of similar texture.

2 or 3 pros, 3 or 4 solid regs and 1 or 2 recreational players.

Look at any ft from either tour and those estimations won't be far wrong.

Keith - I hope you don't mind me saying that you have played on the live circuit for a number of years.

In your opinion what are/were the best tournaments in Europe, in terms of field strength, rake, venue, location, overall tournament experience?

[The Camel]

Yeah while a lot of the guys at the table are miserable, off the table its a different story. Both recs and regs go to EPTs for fun, that's why Barcelona is huge and London is tiny.  They go for the chance to play Lodden on a TV table.  Stars do a lot in events outside of the poker but obviously some players have no interest in that so don't get to see any of that value. That's part of the reason why big online beasts punt it off live cos they are hungover or wanna go do stuff too.

The cover the costs of the filming of the TV shows and stream which are huge but can reap big rewards. I was speaking to someone at DTD recently who had been playing for 3 months and they only got into poker after watching Vicky's FT.

This kind of content will attract new blood far better than a guy in a foam sharks head randomly turning up.

The entire experience for recs is far better in a stars comp, just not when they are at the table IMO.

I doubt even Stars would say that the rake should pay for the filming of the tournaments.

I remember Jon Raab telling me that when Blue Squirrel sponsored and paid for filming and televising on Channel 4 the first season of the GUKPT it cost them over £1 million.

That can only come out the company's advertising budget.

[arbboy]

Yeah while a lot of the guys at the table are miserable, off the table its a different story. Both recs and regs go to EPTs for fun, that's why Barcelona is huge and London is tiny.  They go for the chance to play Lodden on a TV table.  Stars do a lot in events outside of the poker but obviously some players have no interest in that so don't get to see any of that value. That's part of the reason why big online beasts punt it off live cos they are hungover or wanna go do stuff too.

The cover the costs of the filming of the TV shows and stream which are huge but can reap big rewards. I was speaking to someone at DTD recently who had been playing for 3 months and they only got into poker after watching Vicky's FT.

This kind of content will attract new blood far better than a guy in a foam sharks head randomly turning up.

The entire experience for recs is far better in a stars comp, just not when they are at the table IMO.

I would be amazed if Stars lose money from filming these donkfests after the fees they receive from selling the rights to tv companies must surely more than adequately cover the costs of filming them - if they didn't they would simply see it as an hour long advert on late night tv and justify it that way.  None of your rake would, or should, go towards filming these events for TV.  You should in reality get paid a fee for appearing if poker players were smart and knew the revenues that were generated from their attendance and investment into the event.  Imagine EPL players turning up to anfield and paying for the chance to play to earn their wages then the owners selling the rights to the TV companies and the players getting nothing in return for their images being used.

[The Camel]

Agree with some of the points and often avoid Stars festivals tournies and live poker in general because of the hassles of buying in, PS Live, side events selling out, cash games full. Much prefer a smaller festival where I know I can get a seat in a cash game or a side event if I bust.

However, factors you didn't consider. GUKPT re-entry (up to 4 bullets), UKIPT is a straight freezeout. If you are comfortably rolled for multiple bullets then this gives you a big advantage in GUKPT. If you bust strong player on day one, he goes to the cash desk buys in again and gets an extra life

Field size. UKIPT is much bigger, more up top, when you get the final it is likely to be a weaker/softer field imo.

Those drink holder/phone chargers on the table and the blue neon stripe around the edge didn't pay for themselves you know!

Disagree about field strength.

Average Pokerstars player is going to be a lot stronger than average Luton regular (Edna Adams excepted obv)

You might get really lucky at Luton and draw Tom Myland, Dick Lynch, Chompy and Nirvana #pokerplayersheaven

I'd say that to generalise they would play differently. GUKPT players more solid, more live experience. UKIPT better fundamentals, possibly more experience of MTTs over all, but often too aggressive and lacking in live experience. Also the UKIPT directly before the EPT will have players coming for the full festival. However there all kinds of sats for UKIPT for small money so all kind of people get in these Pokerstars 1k tourneys (for example I'd wager the Estrellas before EPT Barcelona is one of the softest of the year in Europe) - having lots of sats is a plus for UKIPT and a negative for GUKPT.

Agree with most of your points esp. on rake, but I think you are drastically underestimating how much being a re-entry makes the field tougher, particularly when you get to the money, a much higher proportion of good players will remain in the tournaments.

I definitely hear what you're saying about re entries.

I hate them obviously. Definitely would make a rec think twice about pulling up in the first place if he knew Sam Grafton, Toby Lewis and the boys were all happy to have 4 entries.

But the fact the overall field strength is higher in UKIPTs means that final tables are probably of similar texture.

2 or 3 pros, 3 or 4 solid regs and 1 or 2 recreational players.

Look at any ft from either tour and those estimations won't be far wrong.

Keith - I hope you don't mind me saying that you have played on the live circuit for a number of years.

In your opinion what are/were the best tournaments in Europe, in terms of field strength, rake, venue, location, overall tournament experience?

That's easy peasy.

Amsterdam for the Master Classics in the old days was unbelievable.

Every tournament the casino added giving back the entry fee for the bubble table (If 36 got paid, finishers 37 to 45 got their buyin back). In the €5000 main event that was 45k added money.

Also, the main event was juice free and they gave a special prize for people who made the FT. One year I got free entry to the WSOP main event and another year I got free entry to the following years Master Classics main event (brag I made the ft twice obv!)

They comped any player who cared to asked dinner in a very decent restaurant.

And the fields were super soft, loads of players who traditionally only played two tournament per year - that one and the big 7 stud event in Baden.

All in all it was poker players dream.

Still excellent value, but the free stuff stopped about 5 years ago unfortunately. But they are still very liberal with comps and the fields are much much weaker than the EPTs.

[The Camel]

Amazing more British players didn't go really.

I am 99% sure Mr Channing has never been despite me telling him about the value on numerous occasions.

I went 10 years in a row I think.

[The Camel]

The Aviation, Paris was fantastic in the old days too.

They did deals with local hotels which meant you could stay in a 4 or 5 star place for £50 per night.

Plus if you entered a tournament you were comped dinner in their high class restaurant. Must have been worth nearly £100 per head.

Dinner breaks there were awesome. None of this 45 minutes to grab a Big Mac rubbish. 2 and a half hours so you could fully enjoy the cuisine.

[The Camel]

The first two, maybe three times I played the WSOP main event they charged $1 in rake.

Almost impossible to believe now, but I promise you it's true.

[Tal]

The first two, maybe three times I played the WSOP main event they charged $1 in rake.

Almost impossible to believe now, but I promise you it's true.

You were the only one not in a cowboy hat that year. How times have changed...

[The Camel]

Plus I am reliably informed there some other attractions in Amsterdam apart from poker which might enhance the experience of being in town for a week.

I haven't looked into those though, waiting til I'm a bit older and wiser before indulging. Tikay might know them. He's been spotted there a couple of times.

[The Camel]

Here's the proof:

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=3527.0

[The Camel]

The simple truth is 10 years ago every single casino/tournament operator charged a great deal less and provided the players with a better experience than they do today.

It wasn't long ago that tournaments in the UK weren't allowed to charge more than £25 in rake.

For example:

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.php?a=r&n=1815

The players have carried on turning up as the value has incrementally decreased.

It's only when we vote with our feet and stop showing up, that operators will be forced to offer us a slightly better deal.

[arbboy]

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.php?a=r&n=633

This one is even better!  £6000 + £30!  Wonder if there were complaints about the £25 max rake being exceeded by a fiver?

[The Camel]

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/event.php?a=r&n=633

This one is even better!  £6000 + £30!  Wonder if there were complaints about the £25 max rake being exceeded by a fiver?

That was in the Isle of Man so Gaming Board rules didn't apply.

Ladbrokes guaranteed a milly for first and no other prizes.

Quite a few players refused to play under those conditions so they put thier hands in their pockets and added all the other prizes too.

Duthie used the money he won in this to set up the EPT.

Who knows what the state of Euro poker without him. It was his idea to have a tour of events leading to a big grand final.

We would probably still just have the mini festivals we had back then.