Dear Pleno..........Best Regards, Danny.

[atdc21]

Vblue i would say you are correct.

[AlunB]

I think that's a bit unfair. They have been sold a story for over 10 years by every single poker site that if you work hard, study and play a lot of poker you can be a winner. Poker is a skill game. You can win! Come be a winner with us! This has been the entirety of online poker marketing for most of its lifetime. So you can't blame the pros for believing what they said.

[AndrewT]

I think that's a bit unfair. They have been sold a story for over 10 years by every single poker site that if you work hard, study and play a lot of poker you can be a winner. Poker is a skill game. You can win! Come be a winner with us! This has been the entirety of online poker marketing for most of its lifetime. So you can't blame the pros for believing what they said.

Indeed - again, Betfair did exactly the same thing, even having advertising with 'Winners are Welcome at Betfair'. By the time they worked out that, actually, winners weren't all that great, Bet365 and Paddy Power had smacked Betfair about.

[arbboy]

I think that's a bit unfair. They have been sold a story for over 10 years by every single poker site that if you work hard, study and play a lot of poker you can be a winner. Poker is a skill game. You can win! Come be a winner with us! This has been the entirety of online poker marketing for most of its lifetime. So you can't blame the pros for believing what they said.

Indeed - again, Betfair did exactly the same thing, even having advertising with 'Winners are Welcome at Betfair'. By the time they worked out that, actually, winners weren't all that great, Bet365 and Paddy Power had smacked Betfair about.

FYP

 Betfair did exactly the same thing, even having advertising with 'Winners are Welcome at Betfair'. By the time they worked out that, actually, winners weren't all that great, betfair had decided to recruit Paddy Power's CEO to turn betfair into a poor man's bet365.

Winners are still welcome on the betfair exchange.  It is just getting harder to win as betfair direct all the 'mug' traffic to their sportsbook product directly.  The vast majority of new betfair customers probably don't even know the exchange exists until they start showing potential to break even or win then they get limited and sent to the exchange in order to place their bets.  Betfair exchange pros have to be smarter and even more savvy than before because the pool of mug business is getting smaller and smaller but it's still possible to win mainly because so many 'winners' who are not winners long term get badly restricted by betfair sportsbook and/or other firms and you forced to the exchange in order to get a decent bet on.

[AlunB]

I think that's a bit unfair. They have been sold a story for over 10 years by every single poker site that if you work hard, study and play a lot of poker you can be a winner. Poker is a skill game. You can win! Come be a winner with us! This has been the entirety of online poker marketing for most of its lifetime. So you can't blame the pros for believing what they said.

Indeed - again, Betfair did exactly the same thing, even having advertising with 'Winners are Welcome at Betfair'. By the time they worked out that, actually, winners weren't all that great, Bet365 and Paddy Power had smacked Betfair about.

FYP

 Betfair did exactly the same thing, even having advertising with 'Winners are Welcome at Betfair'. By the time they worked out that, actually, winners weren't all that great, betfair had decided to recruit Paddy Power's CEO to turn betfair into a middle class Paddy Power.

FYFYP

[Doobs]

I am surprised so many people here believe this.  The relationship is clearly symbiotic.  Betfair failed to realise that without people making markets, there are less bets.  It is the same with poker, if nobody starts the games they don't run.  People aren't going to deposit if the games aren't running so often.  Just because somebody else is making money doesn't mean that getting rid of them means you make more. 

I'd say that Betfair have managed to make the same mistake with both the exchange and poker. 

It is just such a shame that this had happened just at the time we can't all switch to Winamax

[VBlue]

I think that's a bit unfair. They have been sold a story for over 10 years by every single poker site that if you work hard, study and play a lot of poker you can be a winner. Poker is a skill game. You can win! Come be a winner with us! This has been the entirety of online poker marketing for most of its lifetime. So you can't blame the pros for believing what they said.

I don't think it is unfair.  People get sold all sorts of dreams.  Most pro poker players are not naive vulnerable sorts.

Playing poker professionally/sports betting professionally is possibly one of the least contributing ways to make a living that there is.  Do UK players pay any tax at all on their earnings, provide any kind of service, provide any entertainment to others, etc?  Sorry to be so harsh, but I think that sympathy will be lost on many outside of the world of the pro player.

I'm playing devil's advocate in some respects, but I think it's a valid point of view.

[AlunB]

I think that's a bit unfair. They have been sold a story for over 10 years by every single poker site that if you work hard, study and play a lot of poker you can be a winner. Poker is a skill game. You can win! Come be a winner with us! This has been the entirety of online poker marketing for most of its lifetime. So you can't blame the pros for believing what they said.

I don't think it is unfair.  People get sold all sorts of dreams.  Most pro poker players are not naive vulnerable sorts.

Playing poker professionally/sports betting professionally is possibly one of the least contributing ways to make a living that there is.  Do UK players pay any tax at all on their earnings, provide any kind of service, provide any entertainment to others, etc?  Sorry to be so harsh, but I think that sympathy will be lost on many outside of the world of the pro player.

I'm playing devil's advocate in some respects, but I think it's a valid point of view.

Call

[VBlue]

I think that's a bit unfair. They have been sold a story for over 10 years by every single poker site that if you work hard, study and play a lot of poker you can be a winner. Poker is a skill game. You can win! Come be a winner with us! This has been the entirety of online poker marketing for most of its lifetime. So you can't blame the pros for believing what they said.

I don't think it is unfair.  People get sold all sorts of dreams.  Most pro poker players are not naive vulnerable sorts.

Playing poker professionally/sports betting professionally is possibly one of the least contributing ways to make a living that there is.  Do UK players pay any tax at all on their earnings, provide any kind of service, provide any entertainment to others, etc?  Sorry to be so harsh, but I think that sympathy will be lost on many outside of the world of the pro player.

I'm playing devil's advocate in some respects, but I think it's a valid point of view.

Call

You spotted that huh?

[AlunB]

I think that's a bit unfair. They have been sold a story for over 10 years by every single poker site that if you work hard, study and play a lot of poker you can be a winner. Poker is a skill game. You can win! Come be a winner with us! This has been the entirety of online poker marketing for most of its lifetime. So you can't blame the pros for believing what they said.

I don't think it is unfair.  People get sold all sorts of dreams.  Most pro poker players are not naive vulnerable sorts.

Playing poker professionally/sports betting professionally is possibly one of the least contributing ways to make a living that there is.  Do UK players pay any tax at all on their earnings, provide any kind of service, provide any entertainment to others, etc?  Sorry to be so harsh, but I think that sympathy will be lost on many outside of the world of the pro player.

I'm playing devil's advocate in some respects, but I think it's a valid point of view.

Call

You spotted that huh?

I can only go on my own and anecdotal evidence. Surprised some poker pros can manage to get dressed in the morning by themselves. In fact I'm not sure all of them do

[The Camel]

how big did you get keith?

$750

0.08% chance of playing that which puts it into a bit of perspective.

Incredibly unlikely to get one, but more than made up for by my opponents playing terribly in it.

Played a $7,200 last night.

After feeling the adrenaline rush of hitting it, I finally understand why people sit and play slot machines for hours.

I did not win.

Don't understand why they don't allow deals in these? Surely they should want all 3 players to have $2400 than one with $6000?

[SuuPRlim]

I'm going to tentatively dip a toe in this thread here.

Is the complaint from poker pros that their living is being taken away from them by the introduction of these games, which are more appealing to recreational players than the cash games they currently play in, and from which pros are profiting more from?  And that the spin and go format itself is unbeatable to sustain a professional income?

If so, what complaint is actually valid?  Who ever said anyone had a right to earn a living playing poker?  If you choose a path as uncertain as that, then you have to accept the risks.  Same goes for pro sports bettors who have their accounts limited, etc.  Since when does the bookie have to continue to accept bets from someone who only wins consistently?  If the bookie stops that players account but can profit from losing players, well what would you expect them to do?  It is the very antithesis of a profitable business model to just accept winning players without taking any action.  Who opens a pub and then pays some of their customers to drink there?

Just as someone who enters any line of business really - any number of market forces can make their living unsustainable where once it flourished.  I have had to consider this in lines of employment before, as has my partner, my boss, etc.

Have I got the right handle on this situation?

you're right yes.

However poker has been sold as a game of skill, not a game of chance for a long while, and pokerstars themselves have promoted this both as a way of marketing to customers and in defence of legal opposition to the way they have operated.

It's a skill game, and a skill game because people can make a sustainable living from it. Stars have encouraged professionals to play on their site forever, so for the tack to change to high raking unbeatable games is of course going to irritate pro players.

[teddybloat]

how big did you get keith?

$750

0.08% chance of playing that which puts it into a bit of perspective.

Incredibly unlikely to get one, but more than made up for by my opponents playing terribly in it.

Played a $7,200 last night.

After feeling the adrenaline rush of hitting it, I finally understand why people sit and play slot machines for hours.

I did not win.

Don't understand why they don't allow deals in these? Surely they should want all 3 players to have $2400 than one with $6000?

Lowering variance would attract regs.

They dont need or want these games to be grindable.

[DMorgan]

I would assume that they don't allow deals so that the variance is big enough to keep out the pros that might be incredibly douchey and pressure recs into taking bad deals if they nail a jackpot

Not allowing deals also avoids this conversation

Pokerstars: Win up to $90k in our Spin n Go games
Punter: How many people have won $90k?
Pokerstars: Ummm...

[The Camel]

I would assume that they don't allow deals so that the variance is big enough to keep out the pros that might be incredibly douchey and pressure recs into taking bad deals if they nail a jackpot

Not allowing deals also avoids this conversation

Pokerstars: Win up to $90k in our Spin n Go games
Punter: How many people have won $90k?
Pokerstars: Ummm...

Just offer everyone an equal chop before the sng starts.

If not everyone agrees with 30 seconds, off we go.