Early 109$ tricky spot on the bubble.

[rfgqqabc]

PokerStars Hand #127499967617: Tournament #1082346256, $100+$9 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2014/12/26 13:12:47 WET [2014/12/26 8:12:47 ET]
Table '1082346256 7' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: ollypoker (10492 in chips)
Seat 2: KSC3500 (9962 in chips)
Seat 3: Myzwa (6309 in chips)
Seat 4: we different (6195 in chips)
Seat 5: DrewMcRobb (28346 in chips)
Seat 6: Demonic16 (29418 in chips)
Seat 8: power941 (25029 in chips)
Seat 9: vasilich (10442 in chips)
ollypoker: posts the ante 50
KSC3500: posts the ante 50
Myzwa: posts the ante 50
we different: posts the ante 50
DrewMcRobb: posts the ante 50
Demonic16: posts the ante 50
power941: posts the ante 50
vasilich: posts the ante 50
DrewMcRobb: posts small blind 300
Demonic16: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Demonic16 [ ]
power941: folds
vasilich: folds
ollypoker: folds
KSC3500: raises 600 to 1200
Myzwa: folds
we different: folds
DrewMcRobb: calls 900
Demonic16: calls 600
*** FLOP *** [ ]
DrewMcRobb: bets 4000
Demonic16: ?


Initial opener is chilling on his iPad, played pretty loose until 15 or so left then has tightened up considerably. The donker won his chips off me, can't quite remember how, but he had also been pretty fishy and on the looser side. We in 1st, he is in 2nd, with some way between us and 3rd place. There is one guy rocking 8bb on our table and another guy on the other table with 7bb. We have been pretty active since we came to the table, but havent shown down anything in particular, I'd encountered some resistance in the last orbit, but 4b and the guy folded, so no one has reason to think we haven't had it yet.

[pleno1]

i'd call, lead 8,s , , hearts, 6,s ott

[cambridgealex]

i'd call, lead 8,s , , hearts, 6,s ott

we are ip to the donk better (bb vs sb).

interested in this though, pot would be ~12k on the turn, with eff stacks ~23k, what size are we using on the turn, and whats our plan vs a raise/jam? (applies to ip or oop)

I've been getting myself into some annoying spots lately by doing similar stuff to this, thinking i'll get jammed on rarely, then having to bet/fold a huge hand on the turn.

[Oxford_HRV]

hero fold or call/evaluate. think villain has 2p 77-66-22 and combo/big flush draws only, I doubt they will give up initiative on nearly every run out and it's gonna cost stacks to find out, personally folding to preserve stack

[PathFinder]

I think sets are less likely in villains range as the initial raiser is opening off 16bb mid-late position I would expect villain to 3bet 77 and 66 and get it in for 16bb effective plus villain isn't closing action so seems bad to flat 77/66 and 22 here.
Villain could turn up with KK/AA here as they feel initial raiser is wide enough that they would fold to a 3bet

[Oxford_HRV]

As villain would you/they donk pot with KK-AA and use it as part of a bet folding range if hero raised? I think they should and would.
Does villain ever expect to get raise/jammed on here and percieve a semi bluff? What part of their range pot bet folds the flop? I'd suggest none, I wouldn't expect AA/KK to take this line, nor 7x. It's not like we need to gamble, were 1/15 surely calling is fine/good but I'd hate to get cold decked with a chip lead advtg.

[rfgqqabc]

btw im not ignoring these replies just been really busy with life stuff and want to do a proper post.

[PathFinder]

Obviously the problem with us calling is that the OR can re-open the action meaning we could never see the turn card. As you say it's a little tricky... If we were to assign a smaller % of donk bettors range to sets could we just click it back to protect ourselves from AA/KK reshoving if OR reopens the action?

I'm really not in love with any action as there's an argument to everyone lol!

The only reason I can think of for donk bettor to lead for pot rather than checking is because he doesn't want to check call to encourage you to get involved. It would also be weird for donk bettor to be at the top of his range as a smaller lead would be better. I feel like donk bettor has a lot of big draws in their range with overs. QJhh KJhh maybe A10hh we block the suited connectors.

[cambridgealex]

As villain would you/they donk pot with KK-AA and use it as part of a bet folding range if hero raised? I think they should and would.

Hold on a sec, you're suggesting people "would and should" flat pre with AA/KK here and then donk bet for pot on a 762 flop then fold to a raise? I can get on board with preflop, but the rest seems absolutely barking mad!

Is this what the beautiful game has come to?

[cambridgealex]

Also seems unnecessary for villain to have defined ranges just in case the bb raises when he donks for pot from the sb. Maybe have a plan vs OR but that plan certainly shouldn't include folding kings or aces!

[Oxford_HRV]

As villain would you/they donk pot with KK-AA and use it as part of a bet folding range if hero raised? I think they should and would.

Hold on a sec, you're suggesting people "would and should" flat pre with AA/KK here and then donk bet for pot on a 762 flop then fold to a raise? I can get on board with preflop, but the rest seems absolutely barking mad!

Is this what the beautiful game has come to?

Im not saying that. I'm saying if you're flatting AA+KK pre, if you decide to lead for pot as 2/15 with a big overpair into 1/15 and then you get raised you shoul really think about folding. I'm not suggesting creating any pre defined bet fold range or raising with 96hh just that if you get raised in this scenario 1/15 will be percived to be nutted and beating 1 pair. Most likely over thinking here, but I wouldn't expect to see AA or KK that often. Not really anything OR would call now that he wouldn't pre right?