Brian Hastings

[Woodsey]

I think a lot of people are confusing what they believe to be ok or not morally, and the actual rules of the site.
I cant see how there is any arguement, IF the rules state you cant multi account , then how clear can that be ?
I dont see what relevance the extra work he has put in re the prop bets are. adifferent scenario altogether, imo.

If people don't have a problem with what I said above regarding I-poker, then I don't really see a break of the MA rules on stars anything other than a minor misdemeanour, but yeah rulzzzzz is rulzzzzz innit lol.

[GreekStein]

It's all bollocks anyway. How many people on here have had multiple accounts on I-poker on the various skins under different names? Really no different than several aliases on stars tbh....

Yeah rules blah blah, but really doing just the same thing.

Jeez Woodsey, I expect this sort of post from Arbboy, not you.

On ipoker, people can have many different accounts on different skins. It's within the parameters and that information is open to everyone. No-one is at a disadvantage.

On pokerstars, you are entitled to only one account. At the higher stakes especially where the player pool is smaller and everyone builds reads on one another based on the hands they play it's totally unfair for Brian Hastings or anyone else to exploit that by using a different account. How can you seemingly not get that? Hastings puts himself at a very unfair advantage and those he plays against at an unfair disadvantage.

[RED-DOG]

Saw some vitriol towards him on twitter etc and so googled to find out what he had done.

Turns out he was playing online from the USA using a VPN and someone else's pokerstars account.

It seems to me that this is not exactly the worst crime in the world. He was not multi-accounting in order to cheat (by having his opponents not know it was him), he was only doing it so that he could play some online tourneys whilst in the USA. And from what I gather he contacted as many of his opponents as he could to tell them it was him playing on the account.

What do you guys reckon? Was he really all that out of order/unethical? I realise ofc that by the letter of the law what he did was wrong, since it break the T&Cs etc. But it just does not seem that bad to me.

What is the difference between this and me sitting in vegas using a VPN and using my mate's Hills sports betting account to have £5k on Murray to win wimbledon as i don't want hills (my customer effectively) to know it is me betting with them because they will refuse to take the bet but they are happy to accommodate my friend on his account?  Why can't Hastings play on another account in order to get 'action' he might not get under his own name?   Whether it is good for the game long term is another argument.  As long as he is not doing anything underhanded ie collusion with other players at the table who he knows i really don't see what business it is of anyone else who is actually playing on any account.  

FWIW this has been going on for years and is impossible to police in reality.  I lost count of the amount of 'new' accounts the stt regs on Crypto/ongame/betfair back in the day had every other month with new names who were effectively the same person.  

I really don't see what the big deal is tbh.  Everyone knows this goes on.  Why are you not going as mad at pro punters who effectively do the same thing to 'defraud' online gaming firms in order to get their bets on.  Is it because we are 'defrauding' betting companies with our actions rather than individual poker players.  The reality is the two things are identical.  

Nope.

On a network like Crypto, the opponents factor anonymity into their decisions. They expect to be facing unknowns most of the time because there is an awareness that multiple accounts are likely.  

On Pokerstars this is not allowed and at the high stakes where the player pools are small, every assumes that the person they are playing against is who their name says they are. Previous experience, personal reads and reputation play a much bigger factor in the decision making process.

At the low stakes on all sites, multi accounting doesnt make much of a difference because the player pools are so large. At the high stakes it makes a big difference.

You are not allowed to have two Hills accounts either in the same name.   All the bolded factors will also play a huge part of Hill's decision as to whether to take your action sports betting wise as well.  Two punters can ask for an identical bet and stake size and one will get it and the other one won't.  Therefore i will ask the question again are winning sports bettors (TK/tighty included) as bad as Hasting's by betting on other people's online hills account in order to get their bets on?

If you are not smart enough to cope at high stakes then don't play.  It is a brutal world and survival of the fittest will always rule.

Survival of the fittest argument is bollocks.

When we became civilized, survival of the fittest went out the window. What do you think it is that prevents big tough young blokes from punching you in the face and walking away with your dosh and your missus?

[doubleup]

I think a lot of people are confusing what they believe to be ok or not morally, and the actual rules of the site.
I cant see how there is any arguement, IF the rules state you cant multi account , then how clear can that be ?
I dont see what relevance the extra work he has put in re the prop bets are. adifferent scenario altogether, imo.

If people don't have a problem with what I said above regarding I-poker, then I don't really see a break of the MA rules on stars anything other than a minor misdemeanour, but yeah rulzzzzz is rulzzzzz innit lol.

Apart from the poker ethics, you do realise that if some LEA decided that they had jurisdiction, the use of an Irish account and a vpn is a conspiracy to defraud pokerstars (tricking them into providing illegal unlicensed poker in the USA)  and the subsequent transfers were slam dunk money laundering?

[Boba Fett]

I have a friend who pokerstars caught playing their own account through VPN from America shortly after Black Friday and stars confiscated all of their winnings over that time.

I know some people that are/were banned from pokerstars for multi-accounting.

I know of lots of people who had to leave behind their friends and family and move to another country to continue being professional poker players and I know people that were forced to stop being professional poker players because they couldn't/wouldn't leave their family behind and move to continue and now they're pursuing other avenues that may be less profitable/fun/harder work etc

If stars don't take action here then it's a slap in the face to all of those players who have been punished for breaking the rules and knowing how it personally affected all of them I don't see why Hastings should get away with it because he is more high profile. Stars should take back every penny he has won and ban him from their events and site for an appropriate amount of time.

I've heard for a while now that there is a big group of Americans VPN'ing from America under new accounts. I think it's part of a new service that provides the setup and the account. It should be obvious in most cases, like the top American MTT grinders that aren't around anymore. They're not just suddenly quitting poker and not playing anymore. Hopefully this will highlight that to stars and try to go after the players doing that. From my point of view.

[jakally]

I have a friend who pokerstars caught playing their own account through VPN from America shortly after Black Friday and stars confiscated all of their winnings over that time.

I know some people that are/were banned from pokerstars for multi-accounting.

I know of lots of people who had to leave behind their friends and family and move to another country to continue being professional poker players and I know people that were forced to stop being professional poker players because they couldn't/wouldn't leave their family behind and move to continue and now they're pursuing other avenues that may be less profitable/fun/harder work etc

If stars don't take action here then it's a slap in the face to all of those players who have been punished for breaking the rules and knowing how it personally affected all of them I don't see why Hastings should get away with it because he is more high profile. Stars should take back every penny he has won and ban him from their events and site for an appropriate amount of time.

I've heard for a while now that there is a big group of Americans VPN'ing from America under new accounts. I think it's part of a new service that provides the setup and the account. It should be obvious in most cases, like the top American MTT grinders that aren't around anymore. They're not just suddenly quitting poker and not playing anymore. Hopefully this will highlight that to stars and try to go after the players doing that. From my point of view.

Why do you want Stars to go after players VPN'ing to play poker?

[Honeybadger]

Why do you want Stars to go after players VPN'ing to play poker?

I personally have no real issues with people VPN'ing to play poker from the USA. Refusing to accept a stupid and unfair law that was passed in an underhand manner by the US government does not seem a particularly bad crime to me, even if it is officially against Pokerstars T&Cs. Provided they are playing using their own accounts it seems reasonable to me.

I guess one 'selfish' reason why players would like Stars to take action to stop this is because players using VPNs make the games tougher - it's not like your average recreational player is going to ever do this - pretty much every player using a VPN is going to be a good player.

As Boba Fett says, a less self-serving reason would be that it is unfair on those who have had to relocate to continue to play. Why should A, B and C have to move to Canada away from their families and friends in order to play but X, Y and Z just think "screw that, I am going to stay here and play illicitly through a VPN".

Also, guys from the USA playing via a VPN are dodging taxes/money laundering or whatever. Although this seems a bit pedantic in some ways.

[Pinchop73]

I'd be utterly fascinated in watching a short documentry detailing the trace of dollars, the bits inbetween Stinger88>NoelHayes<Stinger88

One things for certain. If your an American who'd prefer to play from home, there doesn't seem to be a lot stopping you.

The IreAbu link makes so much sense too.

[neeko]

I have a friend who pokerstars caught playing their own account through VPN from America shortly after Black Friday and stars confiscated all of their winnings over that time.

I know some people that are/were banned from pokerstars for multi-accounting.

I know of lots of people who had to leave behind their friends and family and move to another country to continue being professional poker players and I know people that were forced to stop being professional poker players because they couldn't/wouldn't leave their family behind and move to continue and now they're pursuing other avenues that may be less profitable/fun/harder work etc

If stars don't take action here then it's a slap in the face to all of those players who have been punished for breaking the rules and knowing how it personally affected all of them I don't see why Hastings should get away with it because he is more high profile. Stars should take back every penny he has won and ban him from their events and site for an appropriate amount of time.

I've heard for a while now that there is a big group of Americans VPN'ing from America under new accounts. I think it's part of a new service that provides the setup and the account. It should be obvious in most cases, like the top American MTT grinders that aren't around anymore. They're not just suddenly quitting poker and not playing anymore. Hopefully this will highlight that to stars and try to go after the players doing that. From my point of view.

Why do you want Stars to go after players VPN'ing to play poker?

Stars big promotion at the moment is to get state legislators to legalise online poker, (mainly so states can get loads in tax) the states would be very unhappy if Stars were seen to be soft on VPN's which would allow players pretend to be out of state and therefore pay no taxes. Stars will want to be seen to be doing something in high profile cases.

[jakally]

I have a friend who pokerstars caught playing their own account through VPN from America shortly after Black Friday and stars confiscated all of their winnings over that time.

I know some people that are/were banned from pokerstars for multi-accounting.

I know of lots of people who had to leave behind their friends and family and move to another country to continue being professional poker players and I know people that were forced to stop being professional poker players because they couldn't/wouldn't leave their family behind and move to continue and now they're pursuing other avenues that may be less profitable/fun/harder work etc

If stars don't take action here then it's a slap in the face to all of those players who have been punished for breaking the rules and knowing how it personally affected all of them I don't see why Hastings should get away with it because he is more high profile. Stars should take back every penny he has won and ban him from their events and site for an appropriate amount of time.

I've heard for a while now that there is a big group of Americans VPN'ing from America under new accounts. I think it's part of a new service that provides the setup and the account. It should be obvious in most cases, like the top American MTT grinders that aren't around anymore. They're not just suddenly quitting poker and not playing anymore. Hopefully this will highlight that to stars and try to go after the players doing that. From my point of view.

Why do you want Stars to go after players VPN'ing to play poker?

Stars big promotion at the moment is to get state legislators to legalise online poker, (mainly so states can get loads in tax) the states would be very unhappy if Stars were seen to be soft on VPN's which would allow players pretend to be out of state and therefore pay no taxes. Stars will want to be seen to be doing something in high profile cases.

I get all of that, but as a player, I don't have any gripe with players who have had their playing rights removed, trying to get around the issue.
The multi accounting side of it adds a complication. But if the main reason for creating a new account is to get back into the games, then I'm not that offended by that either.

[The Camel]

I have a friend who pokerstars caught playing their own account through VPN from America shortly after Black Friday and stars confiscated all of their winnings over that time.

I know some people that are/were banned from pokerstars for multi-accounting.

I know of lots of people who had to leave behind their friends and family and move to another country to continue being professional poker players and I know people that were forced to stop being professional poker players because they couldn't/wouldn't leave their family behind and move to continue and now they're pursuing other avenues that may be less profitable/fun/harder work etc

If stars don't take action here then it's a slap in the face to all of those players who have been punished for breaking the rules and knowing how it personally affected all of them I don't see why Hastings should get away with it because he is more high profile. Stars should take back every penny he has won and ban him from their events and site for an appropriate amount of time.

I've heard for a while now that there is a big group of Americans VPN'ing from America under new accounts. I think it's part of a new service that provides the setup and the account. It should be obvious in most cases, like the top American MTT grinders that aren't around anymore. They're not just suddenly quitting poker and not playing anymore. Hopefully this will highlight that to stars and try to go after the players doing that. From my point of view.

What did Stars with the money they confiscated from your friend?

How was he caught?

[Rupert]

I have a friend who pokerstars caught playing their own account through VPN from America shortly after Black Friday and stars confiscated all of their winnings over that time.

I know some people that are/were banned from pokerstars for multi-accounting.

I know of lots of people who had to leave behind their friends and family and move to another country to continue being professional poker players and I know people that were forced to stop being professional poker players because they couldn't/wouldn't leave their family behind and move to continue and now they're pursuing other avenues that may be less profitable/fun/harder work etc

If stars don't take action here then it's a slap in the face to all of those players who have been punished for breaking the rules and knowing how it personally affected all of them I don't see why Hastings should get away with it because he is more high profile. Stars should take back every penny he has won and ban him from their events and site for an appropriate amount of time.

I've heard for a while now that there is a big group of Americans VPN'ing from America under new accounts. I think it's part of a new service that provides the setup and the account. It should be obvious in most cases, like the top American MTT grinders that aren't around anymore. They're not just suddenly quitting poker and not playing anymore. Hopefully this will highlight that to stars and try to go after the players doing that. From my point of view.

What did Stars with the money they confiscated from your friend?

How was he caught?

Hmm I had my account banned from Jul-Nov after playing on a VPN in USA in 2011 (wanted to practice O8 before the O8 event and my VPN DC'd midway through). They didn't take any money (I lost in the 100 odd hands I played). Interestingly, after France legalised poker (sometime 2010 I think) I played a month on a VPN from France (holiday) because I couldn't figure out why my account wouldn't work and someone suggested I try that. Worked fine and got no ban. Lost money that month too. This was pre-black Friday.

[The Camel]

I have a friend who pokerstars caught playing their own account through VPN from America shortly after Black Friday and stars confiscated all of their winnings over that time.

I know some people that are/were banned from pokerstars for multi-accounting.

I know of lots of people who had to leave behind their friends and family and move to another country to continue being professional poker players and I know people that were forced to stop being professional poker players because they couldn't/wouldn't leave their family behind and move to continue and now they're pursuing other avenues that may be less profitable/fun/harder work etc

If stars don't take action here then it's a slap in the face to all of those players who have been punished for breaking the rules and knowing how it personally affected all of them I don't see why Hastings should get away with it because he is more high profile. Stars should take back every penny he has won and ban him from their events and site for an appropriate amount of time.

I've heard for a while now that there is a big group of Americans VPN'ing from America under new accounts. I think it's part of a new service that provides the setup and the account. It should be obvious in most cases, like the top American MTT grinders that aren't around anymore. They're not just suddenly quitting poker and not playing anymore. Hopefully this will highlight that to stars and try to go after the players doing that. From my point of view.

What did Stars with the money they confiscated from your friend?

How was he caught?

Hmm I had my account banned from Jul-Nov after playing on a VPN in USA in 2011 (wanted to practice O8 before the O8 event and my VPN DC'd midway through). They didn't take any money (I lost in the 100 odd hands I played). Interestingly, after France legalised poker (sometime 2010 I think) I played a month on a VPN from France (holiday) because I couldn't figure out why my account wouldn't work and someone suggested I try that. Worked fine and got no ban. Lost money that month too. This was pre-black Friday.

If your VPN disconnects, does it reveal where you really are?

I had my account frozen for nearly a week, because I was playing from my hotel in England, the proxy server somehow showed me in the USA for a while.

Didn't understand it, but emailed my hotel bill and they re instated my account.

[LonOhRay]

Pratyush
Pratyush –  ‏@pratyushbuddiga

Ivey snap goes "Alright Noel" the first hand Hastings raises hahaha
2:04 pm - 28 Jun 2015
93 RETWEETS306 FAVOURITESI'm

[doubleup]

If your VPN disconnects, does it reveal where you really are?

Yes - I think you can prevent it if you are really strong on the tech side, but your average bod just going through a setup wizard won't set it up properly.