Playing the Percentages

[Sark79]

I have recenently added figuring out pot odds and percentages to my game. Since I did, my results have been mixed. For example in tournaments( always over 45 people) I have made 8 final tables out of my last 9. However I feel my ring games have suffered and I have had 7 losing sessions in a row.

At school I hated maths. When the classes were on, I would disapear down the street or to the local snooker club. The thought of having to work out percentages filled me with fear untill I actually tried it a few weeks ago. I have always been pretty good at adding numbers ect in my head (Make the Most of Your Mind by Tony Buzan has a great section for people with a fear of numbers).  So far, I find pot odds to be straight forward as well. That is providing I have a spare 5 minutes during the hand to do this. Does anyone know any websites or have any tips on how to speed working out percentages up during a game?

How did more experienced players on Blonde learn to do this?.....and.....Do you use the same techniques for Ring Games and Tournaments?...

During the recent Darts world Championship, there was a feature with Bobby George. In this BG went to local schools and taught the kids how to add the numbers on a dart board up. This seemed a great way to get kids interested in numbers. I definately think if Poker Percentages had been included in my secondary school maths class, I would have payed more attention in class.

Up untill recently I have relied on using table position and a tight aggressive playing style as taught in most poker books, while playing. My problem is not being able to count. It is just speed.

Any tips would be appreciated.

Thanks

[thetank]

It gets easier over time. My mental arithmetic ain't that good, but I rarely make mistakes because I've done it so many times.

A stint playing limit poker will have you crunching numbers more and will improve your mental aritmetic.

[Sark79]

Thanks mate.

 The theory behind percentages as taught in poker books is straight forward.

But like everything else in life. It is the doing that is the hard part.

[Graham C]

I've started with percentatges recently too.  Sometimes I don't get enough time to work them out before the timer counts down but I think it's something you need to be able to do.

At the moment I'm disagreeing with Harrington in that if you make a good bet based on odds and someone calls you with bad odds then thats good because they have made a mistake and that's what you want them to do - you still lose the hand at the end of the day and it's only a bad move from them if they know about the odds in the first place.

As for working them out, I'm finding it getting easier as time goes on and I find myself trying to work them out all the time.  The other day I was driving home and was working out what odds I would have to get to call certain hands and what odds I would have to give

edit: actually I kind of question Harrington.  At his level, I would expect players would know odds, at my level, it's different

[Sheriff Fatman]

edit: actually I kind of question Harrington.  At his level, I would expect players would know odds, at my level, it's different

The level of play is irrelevent - you want players to be making -EV plays against you, whether they realise it or not.  Over the long run this will make money, although the short term swings can be hard to take.

Sheriff

PS: Sark, I agree with Tank's advice about playing limit hold'em to improve your number crunching.  Its a much more mathematical game and it'll get you used to making decisions, based on odds, on every street.

[thetank]

you still lose the hand at the end of the day

Poker is not just about the end of the day. It's very difficult to bear this in mind sometimes.

I thought I had it down and was good at this. Today I'm having to constantly remind myself of the fact.

[Sark79]

Thats a good idea ,Silo. I will have to start doing that myself.

 From now on when anyone I know sees me, I will have a puzzled look spread across my face as I try and work out imaginary pot odds.  

I used to hate it when players took ages to make a decision during a game . Since starting to calculate odds, I find I play abit slower. So now I am more sympathetic to slower players.

If only I had a positronic brain like DATA from Star Trek. Life would be so much easier.  

[Graham C]

lol @ Sark.  We'll get there mate

I kind of know you want people to make bad calls but it is hard to take when you lose against them.  You may well be +EV overall but if it's a toss up between staying in and going out of a tourney, I can't (at the moment) turn round and say, "Hey, I'm out, but at least I got him to make a mistake"

I do know you are right though, I'm not arguing with you and will appreciate it more the longer I play I'm sure.

[AndrewT]

Players making -EV calls but winning is an infuriating aspect of tournament poker. Because of the nature of tournaments, one hand going against you can knock you out and make the entire evening's effort count for nothing.

This is one of the advantages that cash games have over tournaments - each hand starts off being as important as all the others. You have the opportunity to increase its importance (by building the pot) or decreasing it (keeping pot small or folding), safe in the knowledge that it will have little impact on the next hand, when you can start afresh. Even if an opponent wipes out your stack through a bad call, you can simply reload and start again next hand.

[Cybertim]

not quite on the same topic but very relevant.  What about those automatic odds calculators that you can get.?  A client of mine was showing me one that he uses and to be honest although its not my cup of tea (although I had a good look at it) I think its a superb bit of kit..  It runs in conjunction with pokerstars and automatically registers your hole cards,table position, and position of the blinds and other players.   when your hole cards get dealt it IMMEDIATELY tells you the percentage chances of making a pair,two pairs  etc..  It also estimates the chances of your hand being the best on the table.. When the flop,turn and river are dealt it IMMEDIATELY updates all the percentages...  there is also a bar on the screen with an arrow that moves to give you a "guide" on whether to play or not..  The screen will say   FOLD,FOLD IF RAISED, CALL,CALL OR RAISE, RAISE OR RERAISE,  Obviously there is a bit of an unclear area on whether this is cheating or not but in reality its just the same as using an odds calculator except it does it immediately and automatically,  the advice bar which advises you to fold,call,raise  just works on a percentage of winning basis but it is a superb tool whatever way you look at it.  Its not regarded as illegal because its not a bot and doesnt actually bet for you.. The reason I wont use it is because I feel you need to bluff a few pots and blinds and it of course doesnt give you a feel of how other players are playing but for people who want to see all the odds in front of them its an incredible bit of kit. I play poker for fun and feel that using this software just spoils the fun and might actually not benefit you in the long run but it sure is impressive.  anyone know what the poker websites angle on the use of these things are?

[matt674]

A client of mine was showing me one that he uses and to be honest although its not my cup of tea (although I had a good look at it) I think its a superb bit of kit..  It runs in conjunction with pokerstars and automatically registers your hole cards,table position, and position of the blinds and other players.   when your hole cards get dealt it IMMEDIATELY tells you the percentage chances of making a pair,two pairs  etc..  It also estimates the chances of your hand being the best on the table.. When the flop,turn and river are dealt it IMMEDIATELY updates all the percentages...  there is also a bar on the screen with an arrow that moves to give you a "guide" on whether to play or not..  The screen will say   FOLD,FOLD IF RAISED, CALL,CALL OR RAISE, RAISE OR RERAISE,  Obviously there is a bit of an unclear area on whether this is cheating or not but in reality its just the same as using an odds calculator except it does it immediately and automatically,  the advice bar which advises you to fold,call,raise  just works on a percentage of winning basis but it is a superb tool whatever way you look at it.  Its not regarded as illegal because its not a bot and doesnt actually bet for you.. The reason I wont use it is because I feel you need to bluff a few pots and blinds and it of course doesnt give you a feel of how other players are playing but for people who want to see all the odds in front of them its an incredible bit of kit. I play poker for fun and feel that using this software just spoils the fun and might actually not benefit you in the long run but it sure is impressive.  anyone know what the poker websites angle on the use of these things are?

Cheating or not - if you are having to resort to having a computer tell you what to do then you need to find another game to play. You will never make it in the world of poker........

[bolt pp]

Thats a good idea ,Silo. I will have to start doing that myself.

 From now on when anyone I know sees me, I will have a puzzled look spread across my face as I try and work out imaginary pot odds.  

I used to hate it when players took ages to make a decision during a game . Since starting to calculate odds, I find I play abit slower. So now I am more sympathetic to slower players.

If only I had a positronic brain like DATA from Star Trek. Life would be so much easier.  

Have you heard of: rule of 4?

[Sark79]

Hey Matt, I posted this somewhere else on Blonde recently. It probably applies to you most as you always play at pokerstars.

http://www.thepokerdb.com/

I don't know if you have already seen this. You probably have.



I think so mate....Rule of 4....is that pokerstars player?

[matt674]

Hey Matt, I posted this somewhere else on Blonde recently. It probably applies to you most as you always play at pokerstars.

http://www.thepokerdb.com/

I don't know if you have already seen this. You probably have.

Yes, i've heard of it - and as i only play MTT's on pokerstars its a very useful site for information

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=4866.0

[bolt pp]

Hey Matt, I posted this somewhere else on Blonde recently. It probably applies to you most as you always play at pokerstars.

http://www.thepokerdb.com/

I don't know if you have already seen this. You probably have.



I think so mate....Rule of 4....is that pokerstars player?

lol, Was the first part of poker maths i familiarised myself with, everything thereafter came easy.