"The Online games are not fair anymore"

[mulhuzz]

Great post from 2+2 about this:



CREV - $99
flopzilla - $35
HM2 - $100
Note Caddy - $90
Note Caddy Edge - $99
Table Ninja - $150
Pro Poker Tools - $89
Run It Once coaching - $100 /mo
Deposit - $500


You're now ready to play 10NL

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=48007581&postcount=13

Silly silly post. Just makes no sense. Half the tools do the same thing for one. You wouldn't want table ninja as someone starting out. I've never used hotkeys and I've played 25 tables at a time, so someone learning to play poker certainly wont. There are many free resources out there for microstakes players and its just simply bullshit to extrapolate Antonious "I can't beat nosebleeds without software" to fucking 10nl.

Making microstakes rake beatable might be useful for a start but as per usual people never look at the sites in this regard and keep blaming completely stupid stuff. I must say I feel absolutely no sympathy for poor old Antonious who can't add to his pile of money anymore without doing any real work.

I'm not sure how many more times I can explain this. Recs lose because they aren't very good. Not because of software. It is my profession to beat these people, don't blame me when I do lol. I'm sorry the skill level is too high for you to rofl up and make a few quid now, but its the exact same in almost every profession.

Remind me....what needs to happen for you to rofl up and win a few quid again? Someone like me has to rofl up and lose a few quid, right?

[AlexMartin]

huds are near the bottom of the pile when it comes to sorting online poker, im in agreement with titbean and rfggg

[TightEnd]

huds are near the bottom of the pile when it comes to sorting online poker, im in agreement with titbean and rfggg

but the perception is that it is much higher up the pile, by the recs yes?

(they might not be aware of account buying, scripts etc)

so sorting that perception makes a big difference, yes?

the way to sort that perception..because you can't compel the recs to use the software, learn it or even afford it ..is to remove it?

[rfgqqabc]

Great post from 2+2 about this:



CREV - $99
flopzilla - $35
HM2 - $100
Note Caddy - $90
Note Caddy Edge - $99
Table Ninja - $150
Pro Poker Tools - $89
Run It Once coaching - $100 /mo
Deposit - $500


You're now ready to play 10NL

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=48007581&postcount=13

Silly silly post. Just makes no sense. Half the tools do the same thing for one. You wouldn't want table ninja as someone starting out. I've never used hotkeys and I've played 25 tables at a time, so someone learning to play poker certainly wont. There are many free resources out there for microstakes players and its just simply bullshit to extrapolate Antonious "I can't beat nosebleeds without software" to fucking 10nl.

Making microstakes rake beatable might be useful for a start but as per usual people never look at the sites in this regard and keep blaming completely stupid stuff. I must say I feel absolutely no sympathy for poor old Antonious who can't add to his pile of money anymore without doing any real work.

I'm not sure how many more times I can explain this. Recs lose because they aren't very good. Not because of software. It is my profession to beat these people, don't blame me when I do lol. I'm sorry the skill level is too high for you to rofl up and make a few quid now, but its the exact same in almost every profession.

Remind me....what needs to happen for you to rofl up and win a few quid again? Someone like me has to rofl up and lose a few quid, right?

I don't rofl up. Notice I said you, and not myself. I work very hard at my poker game, nearly every single day. I would beat you with or without a HUD.

Greekstein, how many recs do you have a hand sample on that makes their fold to cbet in a 3bet pot sample relevant?

[AlexMartin]

to remove huds from a site would require too much effort for almost any site. The costs would be huge to keep up to date.  If you provide hand histories programmers will develop ways to use that information. If you dont show hand histories then you allow scandals to go on, for example the ipoker and microgaming botting rings were discovered by hud use/tracking software as was the UB scandal.

[rfgqqabc]

Anyone would classify themselves as a recreational player who wants to play headsup any game up to 5/10$ online

Texas Hold’em
Omaha Hold’em
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better
Pot Limit Omaha
Pot Limit Omaha 8-or-better
Stud Games
Stud Games
Stud Hi
Razz
Stud Hi/Low 8-or-better
Draw Games
2-7 Triple Draw
NL 2-7 Single Draw
Pot Limit 5 Card Draw
Badeucey
Badacey
Mixed Games
HORSE
Triple Stud
7 Game
8 Game
9 Game
10 Game
12 Game
Dealer’s Choice

I will play you on stream without a HUD. You can have a HUD. Lets go.

[titaniumbean]

but after 6 hands your turn double barrel frequency will have converged and the hud will beep and say OMG DO THIS MOVE and you'll like be beaten and not win monies and shit yo     

[titaniumbean]

huds are near the bottom of the pile when it comes to sorting online poker, im in agreement with titbean and rfggg

but the perception is that it is much higher up the pile, by the recs yes?

(they might not be aware of account buying, scripts etc)

so sorting that perception makes a big difference, yes?

the way to sort that perception..because you can't compel the recs to use the software, learn it or even afford it ..is to remove it?

so the people who don't know anything think one thing so we all change to allow for that. rather than target the problems yeh?

the perception is the problem right? especially of the under informed group??


we should run poker like we do politics, get people with fuck all clue making biased decisions for personal benefit.... yeh seems a good idea.


fix the underlying problems, educate the recs that the bulk of the pros with huds don't know what 99% of the numbers mean, nor do they know what sample size is required for the information to be of absolutely any value what so ever.

I am not here arguing for HUDS as my fellow big nosed gentlemen seems to think, i'm arguing against the stupid and childishly put point that 'huds do all the work because I know nothing about them so they should be banned". I'm arguing against the idea that because hes famous and has won millions without putting the work in that he is entitled to have that keep happening.

the recs sure will notice quick enough that when they sit at an online poker game, the table fills AUTOMATICALLY with 5 regular players who wont play a pot vs each other to save their lives.  that's cool. it's the huds though, they do all the work.... and ofc the players who ruin the ecosystem not the sites who structure it.

[rfgqqabc]

huds are near the bottom of the pile when it comes to sorting online poker, im in agreement with titbean and rfggg

but the perception is that it is much higher up the pile, by the recs yes?

(they might not be aware of account buying, scripts etc)

so sorting that perception makes a big difference, yes?

the way to sort that perception..because you can't compel the recs to use the software, learn it or even afford it ..is to remove it?

No. You stop HEM/PT4 running and someone will work out a way to get a working HUD anyway. Just like people have managed to do on Sky. It only got stopped because they tried to sell it. It wouldn't surprise me at all if other people had a HUD working on Sky anyway. It can't be that hard to scrape the data off the screen.

Honestly if getting rid of HUDs was going to do something Sky and Unibet would be much bigger then they are. A decent proportion of recreational players like trying to work hard on their game and emulating professionals. 

[TightEnd]

people have working HUDs on Sky?

is this widespread?

[mulhuzz]

Great post from 2+2 about this:



CREV - $99
flopzilla - $35
HM2 - $100
Note Caddy - $90
Note Caddy Edge - $99
Table Ninja - $150
Pro Poker Tools - $89
Run It Once coaching - $100 /mo
Deposit - $500


You're now ready to play 10NL

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=48007581&postcount=13

Silly silly post. Just makes no sense. Half the tools do the same thing for one. You wouldn't want table ninja as someone starting out. I've never used hotkeys and I've played 25 tables at a time, so someone learning to play poker certainly wont. There are many free resources out there for microstakes players and its just simply bullshit to extrapolate Antonious "I can't beat nosebleeds without software" to fucking 10nl.

Making microstakes rake beatable might be useful for a start but as per usual people never look at the sites in this regard and keep blaming completely stupid stuff. I must say I feel absolutely no sympathy for poor old Antonious who can't add to his pile of money anymore without doing any real work.

I'm not sure how many more times I can explain this. Recs lose because they aren't very good. Not because of software. It is my profession to beat these people, don't blame me when I do lol. I'm sorry the skill level is too high for you to rofl up and make a few quid now, but its the exact same in almost every profession.

Remind me....what needs to happen for you to rofl up and win a few quid again? Someone like me has to rofl up and lose a few quid, right?

I don't rofl up. Notice I said you, and not myself. I work very hard at my poker game, nearly every single day. I would beat you with or without a HUD.

Greekstein, how many recs do you have a hand sample on that makes their fold to cbet in a 3bet pot sample relevant?

That is likely the case over a small sample and definitely the case over a large sample.

However, I've been around poker a long time, I've worked in the industry etc so I know that you'd beat me with or without a HUD.

Your average rec doesn't know this. It's the old saying 'it must be fair and it must be seen to be fair'.

Also I have to be honest, I think there's such a great deal of arrogance from most regs (and I'm not specifically talking about Adam here) that they know what is good for the industry to the exclusion of all others that it is absolutely cringe.

Mentioning stuff like seating scripts being worse than HUDs etc etc - can't you see that to a rec who is just starting out they are the same thing? They are the one magic black box which allows them to externalise their loss. Nobody likes accepting that they are shit at poker and certainly not when they first start. Dunning-Krueger etc.

The rec has no concept of whether a seating script beat him by getting his game filled with people he can never beat or if someone beat him because they knew how often he'd rfi over a 13 hand sample. The rec knows there are tools he cannot understand which the regs use. And surely these are the reasons he's been beaten, not the fact that RegA has been thinking about SB 3b ranges v rec button opens every day for the last 5 years.

If regs don't understand that perception drives reality for recs then the game is done for - maybe you can all sit around the table losing to the rake or the one reg who really does work 10hrs a day off the table whilst people like me punt roulette or blackjack because whilst I'm a confirmed loser long term EV at those, at least I know the rules of the game.

[rfgqqabc]

people have working HUDs on Sky?

is this widespread?

People have previously made working Huds yes. There are none currently afaik.


Your post above is very good Mulhuzz but on this forum there is a lot of misinformation that is repeated ad nauseam on these boards who aren't "fresh off the boat" recreational players and this is very tiresome. Your telling me that even on these hudless sites that recreational players that want to deny their lack of poker skills on every other site just hold their hand up to it and say "Oh I must be bad" and that this is in some way good for the industry. People are desperate to look for excuses and there will always be something. You know there is a topic on 2+2 with thousands if not tens of thousands of posts about how xyz site is rigged? If peopel want to believe there is a reason for their poker losses that isn't their ability than removing huds simply isn't a viable solution to this and won't save an industry that is dying. Perhaps looking at the rake levels some of these sites take will have a much greater effect but no single operator afaik has ever considered such a crazy measure. I do wonder how a site called "cheap poker- half the rake of pokerstars" would do, but I'm fairly inclined to not think very well as it appears to me that people are just clueless regarding most of these issues (and tbh I can't blame them too much for that, when i go out on the town for a few beers I don't look for the cheapest pub, I look for one that suits my mood)

[AlexMartin]

people have working HUDs on Sky?

is this widespread?

i believe you need 3rd party software

but yeah

[titaniumbean]

people have working HUDs on Sky?

is this widespread?

lol

no they never have  sky has a security department and it constantly works to protect us.....

[Simon Galloway]

to remove huds from a site would require too much effort for almost any site. The costs would be huge to keep up to date.  If you provide hand histories programmers will develop ways to use that information. If you dont show hand histories then you allow scandals to go on, for example the ipoker and microgaming botting rings were discovered by hud use/tracking software as was the UB scandal.

This is your new area Alex I believe?  Hopefully you'll have some good things to contribute in this field.

Regarding the HHs.. it must be possible to stop 3rd parties scraping all the tables, but producing HHs for security use.  Then it is a matter of employing people in security that can actually find the sort of outlier results that it normally takes someone on 2+2 to prove from time to time while security depts claim to have investigated and found no wrongdoing.