All in or Fold? Is this a viable tournament strategy?

[12barblues]

How many big tournaments have been won recently by players using this method? Come the think of it how many small tournaments have been won by this method?

Last weekend I had the misfortune to play a MTT and spent an hour and a half on a table which included a guy who appeared to be playing a version of 'the system'. As far as I could tell, he was pushing pre-flop with any pair, any Ace and any two cards Ten or better.

He was extremely lucky, but he won the tourney. Was it a $2 rebuy? No, it was a freezeout with a $100,000 prize pool and he walked off with $26,000.

There were several other players in the tourney who may (or may not) be blondes and may have run into him after I donked out, e.g. there was a 'pkrgirl', 'Royal2Flush', 'riverdave69' and a couple of others I can't remember now!

[thetank]

Well one thing must be said about him, he picked the right game.

That strategy has by far a greater chance of working in a big buy-in comp than in a smaller one.

(Still a bad idea to apply folks, stick to playing poker)

There's more sense to it live than online. Online there are less oppurtunities for a rookie to be demolished post flop by an expert than the B&M game.

[12barblues]

To make life even more difficult, another guy was going all in on the flop with great regularity.  It looked like all in if he connected with the flop in any way, shape or form.

Between them, they terrorised the table and the second guy came fourth or fifth in the end.

[vampitup]

This evening, I played another 45 player sit & go on stars using 'the system' and came 6th (and to a bad beat in the process).  So results of 10th, 9th, 9th, 1st and 6th so far.  

I also played a 1cent/2cent cash game $5 buy in on stars, trying the cash game ideas out.  Was down to about $2.50 and then upto almost $19 playing like an absolute loon, all in on gutshots etc, and doled out some absolute shocking beats to people.  The two hands I lost big money on was when I lost full house v full house (using both our hole cards as well!), and trips v full house.  Still, I ended up with a small profit on this as well.  Got one guy on tilt big time.  Wiped him out 3 times, said he was going to bed to cry!!!

My dad had that one good result, but he said he did badly on 9&10 player STTs with it, especially on crypto.  I haven't tried it on there, but he says the slower structure of Stars tournaments suits the system better.

[vampitup]

To make life even more difficult, another guy was going all in on the flop with great regularity.  It looked like all in if he connected with the flop in any way, shape or form.

Between them, they terrorised the table and the second guy came fourth or fifth in the end.

That's the whole point, it takes people out of their comfort zones, and they are forced to play differently to how they would like.

[JoeStrummer]

Interesting post. I have tried this once before in an early $2 multi and managed to get heads up but unfortunately finished 2nd. What I did was:-

1.   Raise every hand by 4 or 5 BB`s in any position.
2.   If re raised by an all in, fold unless holding a monster.
3.   On the flop, all in with any type of draw, flush or pair.

The key to this is obviously doubling up in the very early stages when there’s a lot of action so your stack can take an hammering.

[matt674]

A point to Matt674, you seem quite anti this system, as it removes the skill element from poker.  Surely Prahlad Friedman, who uses a similar style of playing in high-stakes cash games very successfully, must have some sort of skill to do it, not to mention devising a system in the first place?

Two quick points - (1) How can you compare the styles of an ultra agressive high stakes cash game player with that of an "all in or fold" merchant? Prahlad Friedman does not restrict himself to two moves every hand and still retains the ability to outplay his opponents post flop, post turn and post river.

(2) High stake cash games and tournaments are two completely different kettle of fish. A style which is effective in high stakes cash games is not necessarily guaranteed to work in tournament play. Even Doyle Brunson eludes to this in his Super Systems book which was first published many moons ago.

Your original question was "all in or fold - is it a viable tournament strategy?" not "all in or fold - is it a viable cash game strategy?"

Every player has a view on the best way to play tournaments and once they have paid the entry fee to a tournament they can play the tournament how they like - if this is how you think you can best make a profit from poker then that is up to you. I wish you luck in your quest.

[byronkincaid]

How many top class players can you name who incorporate this style into their game? How many big tournaments have been won recently by players using this method?

Lee Nelson. 2006 Aussie Millions.

[thetank]

Prahlad Friedman ........... retains the ability to outplay his opponents ............. post river.

I need to improve my post river play.

Anyone got any tips?

[matt674]

How many top class players can you name who incorporate this style into their game? How many big tournaments have been won recently by players using this method?

Lee Nelson. 2006 Aussie Millions.

http://uk.pokernews.com/news/2006/1/aussie-millions-champion.htm

A link to an article commentating on the final table of the 2006 main event at the aussie millions. Please could you explain how Lee Nelson is used the technique of either going all in pre-flop or folding to win the tournament when not one of the hands that is mentioned in this piece has Nelson going all in preflop?

[byronkincaid]

You said "incorporate" He co-authored Kill Phil which is an expansion of Sklansky's system. His co-author Blair Rodman has stated on 2+2 that he used Kill Phil moves to win the tournament. I think this could be described as "incorporating this style into his game"

It has been said that some pro's are unhappy about this book coming out as it reduces their edge against beginner/intermediate players who start using Kill Phil moves. Maybe that's why you seem to be getting a bit stressed out about this topic ?

There a a ton of threads about this on 2+2 with many people taking your line. I can't really comment any further as my copy of the book hasn't arrived yet.

from your link

Despite the unthreatening blind sizes, all-in bets were beginning to appear.

[matt674]

His co-author Blair Rodman has stated on 2+2 that he used Kill Phil moves to win the tournament.

And you don't think this was in any way to promote the book and get people to go out and buy it?? 

Maybe that's why you seem to be getting a bit stressed out about this topic ?

Lol, thankfully monkeys don't suffer stress - this one doesnt anyway, if he were any more laid back he would be lying down - as i am in the picture used as my avatar on pokerstars.

i'll look forward to the book report when it arrives - from what i've read of the transcripts of the aussie millions final table Lee Nelson just played a good aggresive game of poker. maybe the book will prove me wrong (wont be the first time )

[byronkincaid]

yeah maybe you're right. it's not something that I feel strongly enough about to want to argue. I agree all in or nothing is a pretty stupid way to play all hands but obviously sometimes it can be a good move. 

[vampitup]

As 12barblues says, these two were terrorising a table.  Now if a table consisted of 3 top pros, and 3 of the other six were moving in pre flop or folding, and the other 3 were moving in on the flop having hit a piece of it, how would they fare?  I don't think they would fancy their chances.  Hence it would negate the impact of their skills.  This system would also improve results for a weak/tight player IMO, as they get bluffed off too many pots.

The original post was about whether it was a viable tournament strategy.  But I am open to comments, and very mathematically inclined, so maybe it could work in the cash environment as well.

I will have to get this Kill Phil book, only 1 used one on Amazon for 35 quid though! 

The trials continue...  Good luck to those who I sent 'the system' too, can you let me know any results. 

Cheers everyone.

[thetank]

Snoopy's thoughts on Kill Phil

http://www.blondepoker.com/books/210011.html