Horses - are stables a good thing

[arbboy]

I think you have been hearing from horses since the thread started.  Everyone in the thread so far has been a horse at some stage i would imagine.  Probably all have been stakers as well.

[TL900]

Ive been a horse and a backer for several years and Mike, you are so far off the mark. If you have a rich punter friend who is happy to throw thousands at you/someone and write it off regularly then obviously go for it, but that isnt how it works or should work in the real world.

[SuuPRlim]

Yes if the business is a success i reap the rewards if it fails i lose my investment.

I make a judgement call if i want to keep investing - sometimes i have cut my losses and walked away handing over my shareholding and 2 years down the road the business has become successful.

However - i dont go back and say hey the 50k i put in now your doing well i want it back - i made my judgement call and just move on to the next thing

That isn't remotely how it works, and I explained it about as clearly as you can do here

You're going 50/50 on long term results not individual results or short term periods of results (if its a long term backing deal we're talking about, which im pretty sure you are)

you're backing for the long term, so if over the course of two years the horse makes £200k, then it's £100k for the backer, £100k for the horse, over that period of time there would have been stretches of results where i) the horse loses a lot, and doesn't take the hit financially for any of those losses, and ii) periods of time where the horse has won a lot and the backer has just sat back and collected.

Iv been backed, backed, started businesses with investors and invested in businesses and the similarities are there but it's a MUCH MUCH more volatile industry is poker backing, way less stable, way less policed + regulated/more casual and really really fucking risky.

Your decision to completely ignore my point (quoted) which answers your points r.e backing entirely makes me think you're just trolling here so I'm pretty annoyed at myself for wasting my time replying to you, but i'll leave with this thought, which as you seem to have been involved as an investor before you'll be all too aware off...

THE GUYS WITH THE MONEY, CALL THE SHOTS = LIFE

If you're gambling and giving someone a spin in a comp, absolutely fine here's a bag try and win it and we go 50/50 if you make anything back. It's fun, its good spirited and a nice gamble, it's not a business though, and thats what long term backing is, or at least what it should be.

[pleno1]

So, you are right, its often a bad deal for a HORSE to get a BACKER when he has his own money to play and the backer gives nothing but financial support. In fact theres a lot of cases where playing lower off your own money is a lot better.

Take for example you have $3000 and want to play $200nl, you play and your win rate is 2bb/100. You give 50% of your winnings to the backer. Its obviously way better to play $100nl with a 3bb win rate and keep 100% of the winnings. Often when you double the stakes your win rate significantly decreases.

It is however good for players to get backers who provide additional support outside of financial freedom.

Sorry to self publicise here but lets say you earned $20k a year playing tournaments and joined my stable.

You would get the following

8 hours group coaching/week from 5 of the best players in the world at your game type and guys who are playing the stakes directly above yourself and doing really well
2 hours private coaching/month

Lets give these coachings a modest $100/hour, that means every week you are getting $1000 worth of coaching content, every year that equates to $52,000.

The experience you can use off these coaching will not only

a) increase your initial expectation of $20k a year a lot
b) increase your expectations for future years when you potentially keep 100% of your action

but it also puts you in a community of poker players that are speaking about poker every day, there are sites out there like mttmarket where you pay almost $500 for the privilege of this. So lets say the ev of being in my stable would be

52k+6k+X+Y+z-x2

x= 2015 profit expectation
y= 2016 profit expectation
z= 2017+ profit expectation
x2= 50% of 2015 profits you give away.

I think if you look at it this way it is almost impossible to suggest that we are fucking the horses over. Things we haven't even touched on is mental support where we speak to the guys whenever they need advice or help, we are there straight away to help them overcome whatever problems. Friends! The ability to reinvest your money and make your money work etc etc etc etc

It is IMPERATIVE that a horse find the best stable and deal for themselves rather than just joining the person that is first to offer them a deal.

Haven't even gone into horses walking away from staking deals, cheating, stealing (without consequences!!) and loads of other stuff. There is many, many, many horses who have walked away from 100k+ make up deals, I could probably name around 50 guys (some of them twice with the same and different backers) staking is far, far away from a printing business.

Also any clever staking company will only allow their horses to play games with 15%+ roi playing stakes they are beating thus having regular income and lower variance meaning they are basically giving them a wage every month anyway.

[Rupert]

52k+6k+X+Y+z-x2

that's not really how the time value of money works but w/e. Wtf is this, getting staked is obviously the best decision for some people who wish to play the game in a serious manner (professional or non-professional).

[Omm]

Although the tone of this thread got abit angry quite quickly I think it's one of the best that has been started recently, a proper debate on a subject that is actually really interesting and has managed to get all the big hitters to contribute an opinion. It's what blonde needs more of. (Unfortunately I know nothing on the subject so cannot contribute but have enjoyed reading).

[Tal]

Although the tone of this thread got abit angry quite quickly I think it's one of the best that has been started recently, a proper debate on a subject that is actually really interesting and has managed to get all the big hitters to contribute an opinion. It's what blonde needs more of. (Unfortunately I know nothing on the subject so cannot contribute but have enjoyed reading).

Couldn't agree more.

Personally, I've never really liked the idea of people playing with other people's money but it's completely ingrained in poker and has been since the game was first played I expect.

Lots of successful people in many sports, games and jobs have had outside financial support to get there. In an ideal world, they get there on natural talent alone, but that's just not how it works in reality.

[teddybloat]

I'm a horse in a very well run stable

its easily been the most + ev decision i've made.

i am a part-time player and work full time, yet i have been able to move from micro to mid-stakes and have been supported every step of the way. hours of group and individual coaching, tech support, software, and being in a group of like minded enthusiasts. it all adds up.

there are a number of highstakes professionals in the group also, and their development is largely due to being in the stable, many ex stable mates are now elite nosebleed crushers.

one thing that people forget about being backed is the development of you as a player and the increased likely-hood that you will get established at the most profitable stake for you.

if you play off your own money - aside from not getting the coaching, support etc - before you move up you have to increase your bankroll to be properly rolled. if you have to withdraw to pay bills, hit a downswing etc etc then that can take considerable time.

everytime i have moved up, or switched formats, my backers have simply sent me the roll to do so. so getting established at a stake, progressing to being a more profitable player, improving skill set, muse of software etc can be exponentially faster as part of a well run stable than it can be when trying on your own

[teddybloat]

just to say also, i am a poker geek and love learning the game.

so access to likeminded people and a learning enviroment is just plain fun for me.

it really has increased my love for the game overall

[rfgqqabc]

Although the tone of this thread got abit angry quite quickly I think it's one of the best that has been started recently, a proper debate on a subject that is actually really interesting and has managed to get all the big hitters to contribute an opinion. It's what blonde needs more of. (Unfortunately I know nothing on the subject so cannot contribute but have enjoyed reading).

Guys the biggest troll on blonde, if aaron had wrote this, I think some people would have spontaneously combusted .

I wrote an email to Hertz asking why they charge for cars when my mate lent me his Ferrari to take that bird on that date. I wrote an email to Run It Once telling them their business model wouldn't work, as people could watch poker videos on youtube, for free!

[Magic817]

When investing in a business providing time, expertise and money in exchange for a shareholding in a company you have a resale value or a future return. You are comparing this to investing time, expertise and money in a horse who can walk away from the arrangement if they are out of make up or if they buy out of make up. This business model of yours whereby you expect a share of future profits or a fee to be bought out of your shareholding seems very unfair.

[Simon Galloway]

I might write something later  I originally agreed with a few of the others that this was either so off base to be not worth engaging or just trolling.  I remember a few more posts from OP on the subject in the past that are equally off base, so I don't think taking time to lay out a solid (and balanced) argument will make any difference to him, but if there is a genuinely healthy debate unfolding, I'll definitely chip in.  I've probably been in that area longer than (everyone?) and continually see horrendous business decisions made my stakers and horses alike.

Oh and Lil Dave -- the golden rule is.... the men with the gold make the rules.

[nirvana]

It is an interesting subject - I obviously hear stuff about staking but tend to only hear about great successes or horrible make-up stories

It's pretty easy to understand one-off style staking however frequent it might be.

For yer average horse in a stable with make-up. What percentage earn a decent income,  say £20k-25k p.a consistently over 2 -3 years. For most youngish guys £20k p.a with no tax would be a reasonable income I guess ?

[SuuPRlim]

I might write something later  I originally agreed with a few of the others that this was either so off base to be not worth engaging or just trolling.  I remember a few more posts from OP on the subject in the past that are equally off base, so I don't think taking time to lay out a solid (and balanced) argument will make any difference to him, but if there is a genuinely healthy debate unfolding, I'll definitely chip in.  I've probably been in that area longer than (everyone?) and continually see horrendous business decisions made my stakers and horses alike.

Oh and Lil Dave -- the golden rule is.... the men with the gold make the rules.

haha you are, as usual mr G, correct.

What Simon doesn't know about staking, and more importantly making money from staking, it likely not worth knowing (or basically what Mikey currently knows )

Also, huge props to pleno and gang who do seem to be crushing it, not an easy business to make pay, at alllll.

[AlunB]

What business doesn't carry over losses?