We Are Poker Players - join the protest against Amaya.

[wearepokerplayers]

Hello, fellow players!
   Firstly, i'd like to apologize for writing this post without permission, private messages are not allowed for the newbies at your forum(or i didn't understand how to use 'em).

   What happened?
   18 months ago Company Amaya took a huge loan to buy Pokerstars and now makes players pay for it. In those 18 months they made a series of decisions (like introducing 2,5% fee on non-USD deposits or increasing rake in Spin&Gos or few more) to make games worse for everyone. According to the statistical service Macropoker, recent change in VIP-System will extract around 94 million USD from poker per year. In its press releases, Amaya names caring for the game’s ecology as the reason behind these changes, but it’s not clear how extracting money helps it.

   I represent wearepokerplayers.com . Our site is dedicated to the protest of poker players against upcoming changes in pokerstars VIP system and against Amaya's (Pokerstars's owners) policy in general. Below I will write a short version of our plan. Longer version is available at our site(including economical justification).

    What will we do?
   We offer a few-steps strategy. First step in massive international strike on January 1-7, the goal of this step is to attract attention of the poker communities all over the world. This strike is supported by at least 1400 players at Tiltbook and also by various high-stakes players like Dani “Ansky” Stern, Daniel “Oxota” Dvoress, Andreas “Skjervoy” Torbergsen etc
   Step 2. We’re staging a strike probably on Feb 2-11, also for a week or 10 days. The most likely dates are Feb 2-11. At this stage, our goal is to reach 4,000–5,000 participants. In fact, this strike repeats the previous one. We are also hoping for your support. At this stage, we’ll begin to advertize step 3 extremely actively and convince people to take part in our next strike.
   Step 3. This is our site initiative. As soon as we get 5,000 players, we’ll start the next and final step – monthly strike with possibility of extension. The number of 5,000 players comes from our analysis of statistical data. 5,000 active players, including at least 2,500 Supernovas+, generate no less than 15% of pure rake (rake minus rakeback). If we decrease rake by 15%, we cut Amaya's EBITDA by half thus increasing their debt/EBITDA ratio from a heavy 6.6 to a critical number of at least 10.  We really hope to reach 5000 players before step 2, the earlier we make a crucial strike – the better.

   We demand:
   We demand that every game-related change be approved by an online players council. Members of the council will be elected on our site and will represent different stakes and communities. Recent changes regarding the VIP system have to be cancelled as they weren't approved by the players.

   In conclusion, I ask every one of you to join our site and join the first strike of January 1-7. If you are a poker journalist, please write an article about the protest and about our site. it is important to spread this information for as many players as possible. Also, in the next post I will write a FAQ about the site and about a few common misconceptions. Stopping Amaya is extremely important for the whole industry. Together we will win!

[wearepokerplayers]

And here are some of the most frequently answered questions:

   Who are you exactly? Have a heard of any of you?

- Our site came from the russian poker community and our team consists of poker players and businessman. Although you've probably never heard of us before, our reputation back home is very good and more than 400 players from our community joined our site including double-digit number of Supernovas Elite. Also we're in contact with many notable players around the globe.

   Well, I expect you will advertise every other site for the players, nice trick!

- No, we don't have an affiliate program nor planning to have one.

   Guys, you are too radical. Surely signing a petition or making a short 3-5 days strike will make Amaya come to the senses?

- No, there already have been a massive action in writing letters to Pokerstars support (they replied with the standart form), then there were a 3-days strike, at which Amaya lost between 500k and 1mil, to that strike they replied with hypocritical press release stating that they didn't notice any effect on the strike. Clearly, Amaya is now cornered and won't stop at anything, and the only reason they understand is money. They plan to take approximately 1,8M per week with this reform, we must reduce rake by more.

   Everyone knows that rake doesn't matter for the poker rooms, only the difference between deposits and cashouts.

-Nope, Amaya has fixed expenses and they are pretty big. They need as much rake as they can get especially now when their debt is huge and their stock price is plummeting. And winning players make a lot of rake. Supernovas Elite and simple Supernovas generate around 30% of pure rake – almost as much as Amaya profits.

   So, all of those numbers, they are just made up, right?

- No, we have an access to the advanced statistical figures by the sharkscope-like statistical service Macropoker.

   Why do we have to register at your site? And procedure is so complicated!

- We want to be as transparent as possible so we ask players to verify their account with the screenshot so procedure takes around 2 minutes. Not much to prolong your career for much longer time. Also we are planning to make our site the center of the protest movement place for players from all communities games and stakes. If we succeed we may try to form a players union based in the protest.

   I know how to make your site better. You do * your suggestion* .

- Thank you! We appreciate any feedback, our site is still very young, it was made in very little time and not perfect yet. We have a huge improvements list and some of them take a lot of time to implement, so don't get mad if we didn't do something you suggest immediately.

   I am already the member of another strike.

- Great! But anyway consider signing in with us too. The reasons are:
1. We partner with other actions. We're allied with Tiltbook and 2+2 and if you know any other protesting group - please ask them to contact us or let us contact them.
2. We developed a special functionality to help people in finding other regs and to support you in public discussions
3. The movement must be global but needs strong coordination to be effective.
4. The important part of opposition lays in a field of publicity and information. We do our estimations basing on the data on the number of players, their VIP PS status etc

   I am not a Supernova and clearly not a SNE, why would I care?

- Our protest is not about rakeback, it's about company Amaya who wants to turn our favorite poker room into a global casino where everyone loses. If current change doesn't affect you directly next one definetely will.

[rfgqqabc]

How can I get a copy of the memorandum? I've sort of come to the conclusion that Amaya can't afford to care or back down at this point. If I can see the figures I might be convinced but ultimately giving up a month for nothing will make little sense to anyone. It wasn't linked on the site and I couldn't find it in the forum. I really want to support this but the end demands also seem unrealistic to me. I think the website/plan need some polishing.

Have you/anyone looked at pooling some $ to try and buy a portion of Amaya? This might be a better way of changing the companies direction. It is also a pipedream.

[muckthenuts]

- No, there already have been a massive action in writing letters to Pokerstars support (they replied with the standart form), then there were a 3-days strike, at which Amaya lost between 500k and 1mil

Source? This seems pretty hard to believe.

[wearepokerplayers]

Memorandum is being prepared right now. I will post a link here as soon as it is available.

- No, there already have been a massive action in writing letters to Pokerstars support (they replied with the standart form), then there were a 3-days strike, at which Amaya lost between 500k and 1mil

Source? This seems pretty hard to believe.

We have an article on the matter on our site

[Ironside]

sorry but can you and the high stake big name big winners take a 6 month strike and then the fish like me might have a chance of winning ?

[biggy333x]

i don't think these guys understand that if you don't have recs depositing  then there cannot be rake generated.

these guys think amaya are bothered about the bumhunting, multi tabling rake back grinders (who think they bring something to the table), obv they don't thats why amaya have cut the rewards and want to be rid of them.

lawl

[wearepokerplayers]

Well, this is very popular misconception, the most popular probably.
Yes, they care about deposits but Amaya also needs rake - it's the rake is what they are profiting now and regular players create a lot of rake. A lot, only SNEs(all regs) + SNs(vast majority are regs) create around 31% of pure rake(rake-rakeback) which is almost as much as amaya profits and with amound of their debts they clearly can't loose us now.

[wearepokerplayers]

Hey, guys.
I haven't posted here for a while. In the meanwhile we made a short video with comments on Lee Jones's interview.



Unfortunately, whenever i tried to insert a video to be shown here, i've got "#Invalid YouTube Link#" message so only a link.

Next in line - the results of the 1-7 January strike.


edit, you tube added

[tikay]

I wish you every luck with your wishes mate, but as long as you say stuff like this, you have no chance.


"We demand that every game-related change be approved by an online players council. Members of the council will be elected on our site and will represent different stakes and communities. Recent changes regarding the VIP system have to be cancelled as they weren't approved by the players".


The moment I read that, I auto thought "no chance".

They are a Business, no Business is ever going to agree to having to ask their customers before they change any of the Products or pricing, it just ain't ever gonna happen.

Try to negotiate, talk to them, consult, they all have possibilities, but demanding they get player approval first? No chance. Any Business that wants to increase prices & asks that question would all get the same answer.  

Modify your stance & you might get somewhere. 

[Ironside]

Well, this is very popular misconception, the most popular probably.
Yes, they care about deposits but Amaya also needs rake - it's the rake is what they are profiting now and regular players create a lot of rake. A lot, only SNEs(all regs) + SNs(vast majority are regs) create around 31% of pure rake(rake-rakeback) which is almost as much as amaya profits and with amound of their debts they clearly can't loose us now.

but i would be more willing to rake more and i think many more recs would if everytime we made top 2% of a field we werent the targets with the regs all knowing each other trying to get rid of all us deadwood before they split up there wages, i would also be willing to rake more if i didnt have every time a reg is in a hand it taking ages as he spins through his tables and he refered to his hud

[bergeroo]

but i would be more willing to rake more and i think many more recs would if everytime we made top 2% of a field we werent the targets with the regs all knowing each other trying to get rid of all us deadwood before they split up there wages, i would also be willing to rake more if i didnt have every time a reg is in a hand it taking ages as he spins through his tables and he refered to his hud

Hey Ironside! Bit of a derail of the points that are being made in the thread and I think you are falling into the trap that has been set by pokerstars. They are setting this up as a 'war on regs' and as the benefit for casual players when in fact they are taking money from the whole poker ecomony and removing it directly to pay their shareholders and for the loans that Amaya took out to buy Stars.

You seem to be implying that regs softplay each other at the expense of unknowns? If I go deep in a tourney then I play just as tough, if not tougher against regs/people I've played a bunch of hands with, even people I know.

As for your second point, it would perhaps even put you at an advantage in some waysas you are paying attention to the table and as an unknown he wouldn't have any hands on you? If you want to play even faster then you can play zoom/rush.

I do agree about huds though. I would be happy to play online with no huds and it is one of the things that is intimidating to new/casual players.

I'm playing a lot less on Stars this year, so they have already lost rake from me.

[MC]

but i would be more willing to rake more and i think many more recs would if everytime we made top 2% of a field we werent the targets with the regs all knowing each other trying to get rid of all us deadwood before they split up there wages

You what?

[Ironside]

badly worded ect

but as a rec who cant due to health reasons play enough to keep my game fresh and upto date with the regs i would be more likely to sit down and for an evening if i knew there were less regs playing
i always find they are the ones slowing us down with clock running every time its on them and also they have so much info even on the recs stored away in there HEM's that i feel at a disadvantage

[wearepokerplayers]

As a regular, i'd say that this is a very big misconception about huds. I never use any stats aside few basic like vpip or PFR against recreational players. Never. I'm an honest players, i've never bought any mining in my career and i don't have nearly enough hands on a single rec to make me look for the advanced stats. They are only used against other regular players. And Amaya won't remove huds completely - why else would they make Jivaro? As for the complete removal of huds, i would support it if there was a solution against cheaters who would create their own hud undetectable by stars.
tikay yes, i know, that out demand seems too radical, but it's the only demand that matters. If we're correct about Amaya's intentions of turning poker into a casino game - any other demand is meaningless. So, we have to make enough leverage so our demand will be met.