Petition to make Bookmakers accept bets of at least £25

[arbboy]

I don't really see a reason why bookies shouldn't have the power to limit certain customers if they're the ones who have to pay out, even if it is annoying to some of us. Nevertheless, I will sign the petition anyway.

The problem I have with bookies is when they "palp" bets. This is very wrong. If they make the error, they should suffer the consequences as is the case with other companies (for example O2 who randomly knocked £300 off my phone contract, and were forced to honour that).

Completely disagree Peter, I think the palp rule is the one rule which is fair for the punters and is massively misunderstood. What happens if someone puts a decimal point in the wrong place and prices up a 1.01 shot as a 101.00 shot and they then get filled in? People then lose their jobs due to a team bottom line hit due to an innocent error? Seems ridiculous to me.

I would argue that the bookies systems should be programmed well enough to pick up and not allow an error of this magnitude.

I don't really see a reason why bookies shouldn't have the power to limit certain customers if they're the ones who have to pay out, even if it is annoying to some of us. Nevertheless, I will sign the petition anyway.

The problem I have with bookies is when they "palp" bets. This is very wrong. If they make the error, they should suffer the consequences as is the case with other companies (for example O2 who randomly knocked £300 off my phone contract, and were forced to honour that).

Completely disagree Peter, I think the palp rule is the one rule which is fair for the punters and is massively misunderstood. What happens if someone puts a decimal point in the wrong place and prices up a 1.01 shot as a 101.00 shot and they then get filled in? People then lose their jobs due to a team bottom line hit due to an innocent error? Seems ridiculous to me.

Very much this.  The only reasonable issue punters have with 'palps' is when they trade down through the prices then claim palp after 5 or 6 price changes.  That just shows they are totally clueless and is totally out of order.  Any firm which uses palp in the right direction instantly is quite within their rights.  You couldn't walk into a garage and buy an Audi for £4,999 because the sticker in the window says that is the price if the right price should have been £49,999.  Quite rightly they would laugh at you and tell you to fuck off.

Actually, I believe that according to trading standards, at least in the UK, if the Audi was advertised at £4,999, they would be legally obliged to sell at that price, even if it was a mistake.

The Audi example isn't legally an offer to sell it's an "invitation to treat" so audi can just pull out of the sale.

Correct from my brief legal training!

[rinswun]

One of my biggest frustrations is when you have a horse (or other selection, but usually a horse in my experience) chalked up at say 10s and you try to back it and if gets referred to the trader who offers you half at 10s, half at or SP. and then doesn't move the price! Not bothered about being only stood half a stake but feel aggreivrd that others can still get on at the advertised price and I can't!

[JohnCharver]

Should have to take the same amount on any bet as they are willing to take on the spin of a roulette wheel. By refusing to do this they prove they are a minicasino and not a bookmaker. Government clearly dont care as they just want their revenue.

[nirvana]

Pretty funny, I'd be slightly embarrassed signing that plus makes no sense for a losing punter like me

[arbboy]

Should have to take the same amount on any bet as they are willing to take on the spin of a roulette wheel. By refusing to do this they prove they are a minicasino and not a bookmaker. Government clearly dont care as they just want their revenue.

Very fair policy.  They bet roulette to 2.75% and lay a bet to a monkey every spin (only because they are limited to a monkey as well - used to be £3500 in the early days of fobts).  Virtually every other product they bet to a much higher margin in the shops.  Would be very tough to argue against this if the government really wanted to drop the hammer on them.

[nirvana]

Should have to take the same amount on any bet as they are willing to take on the spin of a roulette wheel. By refusing to do this they prove they are a minicasino and not a bookmaker. Government clearly dont care as they just want their revenue.

Very fair policy.  They bet roulette to 2.75% and lay a bet to a monkey every spin (only because they are limited to a monkey as well - used to be £3500 in the early days of fobts).  Virtually every other product they bet to a much higher margin in the shops.  Would be very tough to argue against this if the government really wanted to drop the hammer on them.

Wouldn't it ultimately be self defeating - I mean wouldn't these guys just keep developing casino type ops and cut the wagering ops. Obv I know nothing but I assume they would

[arbboy]

Should have to take the same amount on any bet as they are willing to take on the spin of a roulette wheel. By refusing to do this they prove they are a minicasino and not a bookmaker. Government clearly dont care as they just want their revenue.

Very fair policy.  They bet roulette to 2.75% and lay a bet to a monkey every spin (only because they are limited to a monkey as well - used to be £3500 in the early days of fobts).  Virtually every other product they bet to a much higher margin in the shops.  Would be very tough to argue against this if the government really wanted to drop the hammer on them.

Wouldn't it ultimately be self defeating - I mean wouldn't these guys just keep developing casino type ops and cut the wagering ops. Obv I know nothing but I assume they would

Yes you are probably right.

[JohnCharver]

Should have to take the same amount on any bet as they are willing to take on the spin of a roulette wheel. By refusing to do this they prove they are a minicasino and not a bookmaker. Government clearly dont care as they just want their revenue.

Very fair policy.  They bet roulette to 2.75% and lay a bet to a monkey every spin (only because they are limited to a monkey as well - used to be £3500 in the early days of fobts).  Virtually every other product they bet to a much higher margin in the shops.  Would be very tough to argue against this if the government really wanted to drop the hammer on them.

Wouldn't it ultimately be self defeating - I mean wouldn't these guys just keep developing casino type ops and cut the wagering ops. Obv I know nothing but I assume they would

Wouldnt be in their interests, majority ive seen playing is on roulette, if you match the amount to say the amount you can have on a single number, the bookie would still be much better off, as I can only have say 25 quid on a horse but you could still have three figures on a spin.

My policy was two fold aswell, if bookies were to try reduce the max bet by reducing FOBT stakes then it will slow the rate some poor sod can stuff notes into the machines.

[RickBFA]

No probs with the link, Adz.

Can't see any petition making a dot of difference personally, but no harm in trying.

Bookies are commercial entities, & if they don't want to accept certain bets, that's their perfect right, or so it seems to me.

Market forces will do their thing, as always. 1 firm, struggling for business perhaps, may agree, & others may follow, but if they get exploited by the sharps - & they will - it'll not last long.    

Good luck with it though.

Without going over old ground, I agree they have the right to make commercial decisions and not accept certain bets.

Its the way these organisations make shocking commercial decisions which are poorly thought through that frustrates.

Show the slightest intelligence and its goodbye to accepting almost any bet from a lot of these organisations.

And that policy seemingly is making them very little money. Crazy.

[arbboy]

I think another factor is underrated esp in the ftse firms is the obsession with margins.  Hills latest report was banging on about margins falling.  Margins could fall through the floor if you allowed them to and you turn over a shed load more money and take more profit.  Given this obsession you are always going to have CEOs and Tds making decisions to protect their margins rather than max bottom line profits.  This means if you want to hold 8% on the sports book for the city book yes men you have to technically close all accounts you expect to win 5% from otherwise it becomes harder and harder to hit your margin target.   I have never understood the obsession with margins in a huge turnover high volume business like betting.  Sounds stupid but this is the way the game is going. If you don't lose at a fast enough rate they will sack you off.

The funny thing is you never hear about margin warnings in interim results in the city it is always bottom line absolute profit which causes the profit warnings which cause share price slumps which CEOs hate.

[nirvana]

I think another factor is underrated esp in the ftse firms is the obsession with margins.  Hills latest report was banging on about margins falling.  Margins could fall through the floor if you allowed them to and you turn over a shed load more money and take more profit.  Given this obsession you are always going to have CEOs and Tds making decisions to protect their margins rather than max bottom line profits.  This means if you want to hold 8% on the sports book for the city book yes men you have to technically close all accounts you expect to win 5% from otherwise it becomes harder and harder to hit your margin target.   I have never understood the obsession with margins in a huge turnover high volume business like betting.  Sounds stupid but this is the way the game is going. If you don't lose at a fast enough rate they will sack you off.

The funny thing is you never hear about margin warnings in interim results in the city it is always bottom line absolute profit which causes the profit warnings which cause share price slumps which CEOs hate.

Really good point this and I hadn't really thought about it. In a private business we 're gonna care about cash flows in the main. The % return is something of an irrelevance.

As you say, PLCs actively turn down business because it doesn't reach certain returns criteria and the drive for specific % & year on year improving returns drives the desperate short termism that damages most UK and US businesses in the end.

[arbboy]

I think another factor is underrated esp in the ftse firms is the obsession with margins.  Hills latest report was banging on about margins falling.  Margins could fall through the floor if you allowed them to and you turn over a shed load more money and take more profit.  Given this obsession you are always going to have CEOs and Tds making decisions to protect their margins rather than max bottom line profits.  This means if you want to hold 8% on the sports book for the city book yes men you have to technically close all accounts you expect to win 5% from otherwise it becomes harder and harder to hit your margin target.   I have never understood the obsession with margins in a huge turnover high volume business like betting.  Sounds stupid but this is the way the game is going. If you don't lose at a fast enough rate they will sack you off.

The funny thing is you never hear about margin warnings in interim results in the city it is always bottom line absolute profit which causes the profit warnings which cause share price slumps which CEOs hate.

Really good point this and I hadn't really thought about it. In a private business we 're gonna care about cash flows in the main. The % return is something of an irrelevance.

As you say, PLCs actively turn down business because it doesn't reach certain returns criteria and the drive for specific % & year on year improving returns drives the desperate short termism that damages most UK and US businesses in the end.

I literally couldn't care less what my ROI is an a professional gambler.  If i have a 1% edge i take it.  It kills my ROI (if i cared about it) but for every £2k i have on i make £20 cash).  The more i turn my money over with any positive edge the more money i make.  I never understand why anyone in the gambling business cares about margins over how much cash they make (apart from to impress people that don't understand the game).    I could have a 25% roi if i wanted to.  It would look really impressive to people who have no idea about the game but i would only turn over £500 a month on probably 2 bets which i couldn't get on properly and make £125 profit.  ROI looks awesome but i am skint.  Try going into Aldi and paying for your shopping with a 25% roi but no cash.  'We don't take ROi as a form of payment' is the common response.  

Equally the boys in the city say 'we couldn't care what your margins are lolbrokes your trading profits are down year on year whatever your turnover is so we don't want your shares you are not making enough cash'yet constantly they focus on margin over profit.  The comical thing is all their profits nowadays come from their lowest margin, highest turnover product.  FOBT's.

[typhoon13]

Strongly with arbs here

I have run my own commodities trading company for 36 years and i simply don't give a toss about turnover or ROI

If a deal looks like it will make money no matter how big or small i am in

By the way YOY we have never shown a loss, so can't be a tooooooo bad a policy

[DungBeetle]

I think another factor is underrated esp in the ftse firms is the obsession with margins.  Hills latest report was banging on about margins falling.  Margins could fall through the floor if you allowed them to and you turn over a shed load more money and take more profit.  Given this obsession you are always going to have CEOs and Tds making decisions to protect their margins rather than max bottom line profits.  This means if you want to hold 8% on the sports book for the city book yes men you have to technically close all accounts you expect to win 5% from otherwise it becomes harder and harder to hit your margin target.   I have never understood the obsession with margins in a huge turnover high volume business like betting.  Sounds stupid but this is the way the game is going. If you don't lose at a fast enough rate they will sack you off.

The funny thing is you never hear about margin warnings in interim results in the city it is always bottom line absolute profit which causes the profit warnings which cause share price slumps which CEOs hate.

Really good point this and I hadn't really thought about it. In a private business we 're gonna care about cash flows in the main. The % return is something of an irrelevance.

As you say, PLCs actively turn down business because it doesn't reach certain returns criteria and the drive for specific % & year on year improving returns drives the desperate short termism that damages most UK and US businesses in the end.

I literally couldn't care less what my ROI is an a professional gambler.  If i have a 1% edge i take it.  It kills my ROI (if i cared about it) but for every £2k i have on i make £20 cash).  The more i turn my money over with any positive edge the more money i make.  I never understand why anyone in the gambling business cares about margins over how much cash they make (apart from to impress people that don't understand the game).    I could have a 25% roi if i wanted to.  It would look really impressive to people who have no idea about the game but i would only turn over £500 a month on probably 2 bets which i couldn't get on properly and make £125 profit.  ROI looks awesome but i am skint.  Try going into Aldi and paying for your shopping with a 25% roi but no cash.  'We don't take ROi as a form of payment' is the common response.  

Equally the boys in the city say 'we couldn't care what your margins are lolbrokes your trading profits are down year on year whatever your turnover is so we don't want your shares you are not making enough cash'yet constantly they focus on margin over profit.  The comical thing is all their profits nowadays come from their lowest margin, highest turnover product.  FOBT's.

I agree to an extent, but the issue comes when you have finite capital and can't take every profit making opportunity.  When they reject a project on margin aren't they basically saying that their available capital can be better deployed elsewhere?

[tikay]

I think another factor is underrated esp in the ftse firms is the obsession with margins.  Hills latest report was banging on about margins falling.  Margins could fall through the floor if you allowed them to and you turn over a shed load more money and take more profit.  Given this obsession you are always going to have CEOs and Tds making decisions to protect their margins rather than max bottom line profits.  This means if you want to hold 8% on the sports book for the city book yes men you have to technically close all accounts you expect to win 5% from otherwise it becomes harder and harder to hit your margin target.   I have never understood the obsession with margins in a huge turnover high volume business like betting.  Sounds stupid but this is the way the game is going. If you don't lose at a fast enough rate they will sack you off.

The funny thing is you never hear about margin warnings in interim results in the city it is always bottom line absolute profit which causes the profit warnings which cause share price slumps which CEOs hate.

Really good point this and I hadn't really thought about it. In a private business we 're gonna care about cash flows in the main. The % return is something of an irrelevance.

As you say, PLCs actively turn down business because it doesn't reach certain returns criteria and the drive for specific % & year on year improving returns drives the desperate short termism that damages most UK and US businesses in the end.

I literally couldn't care less what my ROI is an a professional gambler.  If i have a 1% edge i take it.  It kills my ROI (if i cared about it) but for every £2k i have on i make £20 cash).  The more i turn my money over with any positive edge the more money i make.  I never understand why anyone in the gambling business cares about margins over how much cash they make (apart from to impress people that don't understand the game).    I could have a 25% roi if i wanted to.  It would look really impressive to people who have no idea about the game but i would only turn over £500 a month on probably 2 bets which i couldn't get on properly and make £125 profit.  ROI looks awesome but i am skint.  Try going into Aldi and paying for your shopping with a 25% roi but no cash.  'We don't take ROi as a form of payment' is the common response. 

Equally the boys in the city say 'we couldn't care what your margins are lolbrokes your trading profits are down year on year whatever your turnover is so we don't want your shares you are not making enough cash'yet constantly they focus on margin over profit.  The comical thing is all their profits nowadays come from their lowest margin, highest turnover product.  FOBT's.

I agree to an extent, but the issue comes when you have finite capital and can't take every profit making opportunity.  When they reject a project on margin aren't they basically saying that their available capital can be better deployed elsewhere?

I don't believe Online Gaming companies worry too much about that, very little upfront working capital is needed in that industry if we are talking about Sports Betting markets, & cash flow is not an issue either. Staff costs are the main variable.