How would you have played it?

[snoopy1239]

I'm pretty sure I played this badly. How would you have played it? That 3 was a shocking river...


Seat 5 is the button

Seat 2: bigjuicy1 ( $159.12 )
Seat 4: nacurry ( $431.61 )
Seat 5: yamas78 ( $502.45 )
Seat 6: snoopy1239 ( $284.85 )

snoopy1239 posts small blind [$1].
bigjuicy1 posts big blind [$2].

** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to snoopy1239 [  ]

nacurry raises [$6].
yamas78 calls [$6].
snoopy1239 calls [$5].
bigjuicy1 folds.

** Dealing Flop ** [ , , ]

snoopy1239 checks.
nacurry checks.
yamas78 bets [$10].
snoopy1239 raises [$20].
nacurry calls [$20].
yamas78 calls [$10].

** Dealing Turn ** [ ]

snoopy1239 checks.
nacurry bets [$55].

yamas78 folds.
snoopy1239 calls [$55].

** Dealing River ** [ ]

snoopy1239 checks.
nacurry bets [$55].
snoopy1239 calls [$55].

nacurry shows [ , ] a straight, nine to king.
snoopy1239 doesn't show [ , ] two pairs, kings and queens.

nacurry wins $298 from  the main pot  with a straight, nine to king.

[Newmanseye]

I dont think you could have played it differently, you were trapping as you should be, you were just unlucky to run in to a bigger hand.

He was probably calling with the un and down draw anyways.

[Alex Scott]

KQs isn't much of a hand to be calling a raise out of position with - in fact, its one of the most overrated types of hand in No Limit Hold'em, more likely to get you into trouble than win you a big pot. Still, it can be a profitable hand when played well, so you shouldn't always fold it to a single raise. In this hand you're getting 3-1 on your money in a multiway pot so you probably aren't going to fold.

Anyway, your key mistake in the hand is not raising enough on the flop to force anybody out. Before anybody bets the pot is $20. The first player bets $10, making the pot $30, and you raise to $20 making the pot $50. Since the next player only has to call $20 into a $50 pot, he's getting 2.5 to 1 on his money and may be correct to call with a wide variety of hands, provided you'll pay him off if he hits, or you'll give him a free card on the turn. (Not to say that I would call, since the original bettor is still to act, but plenty of people would and they aren't making an enormous mistake by doing so).

If you'd raised to $40, the same player now has to call $40 into a $70 pot - less than 2 to 1 on his money - which represents a larger portion of his stack and is significantly harder to call with just a draw. Raising more also gives you a bit of information about your opponents hands. If you get called or reraised when you raise to $40, you can be pretty sure that you're beat and you won't lose any more money on the hand. However, if you make the minimum raise the original bettor has a mandatory call if he has any outs at all, and you won't know if he has a crap hand like pocket tens, or a hand that has you in terrible shape like A-Q or Q-J.

By the way, you shouldn't usually be trapping with a hand as weak as top pair, reasonable kicker. Its something you should do occasionally, but your standard play should certainly not be trapping. Save the traps for quads and straight flushes.

PS. Hope this came across as harsh, but helpful!

[JungleCat03]

nice first post!

I don't play a lot of NL cash but i would also raise mroe on the flop to assess where you are with a medium strength hand. If you get reraised against most players its an easy fold.

Min riasing with a vulnerable hand that will be tricky to read if you are ahead on future streets is trouble.

That's the view of a NL cash fish! (or catfish if u prefer) so feel free to mock .......

[Alex Scott]

nice first post!

Cheers. I walked past the Cincinnati Club the other day and that reminded me of this forum - thought I'd pay it a visit.

[temp0r]

I'm pretty sure I played this badly.

y'think?

first you make a weak call out of position. then you slow play a very vulnerable top pair with 2nd kicker. and allow someone to make their straight. you set your own trap and you clearly have a leak in your game. especially as we're talking about cash here!

[snoopy1239]

Okay, I’ve thought long and hard about this hand and the responses given.

First off, gr8 post Alex. Top stuff, keep them coming. Much appreciated.

Temp0R, not so great. I shouldn’t be chastised for posting a hand and asking for feedback, especially when I confess to having played it poorly. Those sort of replies can put off others, rookies in particular, from asking for feedback, and that’s not what we want at all.

Regarding the hand in question, I would say that calling an extra $5 with against two opponents isn’t a bad play. I can’t imagine that many people would fold here. Maybe I’m wrong, speak out folks if you would pass.

Also, and this is an opinion that pretty much everyone will disagree with, I believe my errors lay in the turn rather than my actions on the flop.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. In this case, I can’t assume that nacurry has a drawing hand. There is no flush draw on the board. Therefore, the only drawing hand that he might hold is T9, most probably suited as few would raise preflop with such a holding. He may hold AT, but I think even the big fish know to fold a gutshot to two raises.

Therefore, I don’t think I can just assume he has this one type of holding.

You may say, ‘yes, but he could have a monster hand such as trips or two pair’. This is true, but, in my opinion, we are more likely to find this out from a rereraise than if I just bet out.

Also, many people tend to analyse hands with an ABC thought process. From my experience, playing ABC can grind you out a profit, but will inevitably make you predictable. I prefer to remain unpredictable, and that sometimes means checking top pair. That way, my hands get paid off. I have tried both styles, and the latter is more profitable for me.

Let’s say that I bet out here. Both would call my bet. Where would I be then? Would I really have that much more info? I think my check raise garners a lot more. He’s willing to call a rereraise, so surely he has something decent. Flatcalling a straight out bet could mean anything, and I wouldn’t be able to put him on a hand. The path I took meant that he had to have either QQ, JJ, QJ, 33, or T9. I’ve got him down to 5 possible hands, and three of them are virtually the same! How many would I be able to read him for if he’d just flatcalled a bet. He could have 2nd or 3rd pair, top pair with a weak kicker, drawing to the straight, or even trapping with trips or two pair. A lot more than 3 anyhow. If he reraises, then I still have no idea and I could potentially lose a lot of money.

Most of the time, nacurry will fold. We can’t just assume he’s got a big enough hand to call a rereraise. Therefore, I was happy to check raise believing that nacurry would pass. If he plays, then fair enough, he has a hand, but at least I know. If he reraises, then he definitely has a hand, and I will have escaped cheaply

If nacurry folds and yamas calls, I pretty much know I’m ahead. Few players flatcall with a stronger hand than I hold. If they do it with trips, then so be it. I’ve found a shark who bets a monster then slows down, but these are rare, so I can’t just make this assumption. Come the turn, I will have a psychological advantage with a good hand and I should be able to take the pot uncontested. If he reraises my check raise on the flop, I can once again get out for cheap, knowing that my KQ is in bad shape.

The big argument here is that I should have checkraised more than the minimum. My answer would be that this is an online game. The five hands that I put him on after he called the rereraise are QQ, JJ, QJ, T9, and 33. He still calls with these hands, even if I reraise more. I therefore think I find out the same amount of info for cheaper.

My belief is that the error occurred on the turn. I should have folded. I know he either has QQ, JJ, QJ, T9, or 33. Four of those hands are beating me, and only one is losing. I should just let it go as I know another bet with will probably come up on the river.

The 3 on the river was a terrible card. It made it very difficult to fold to his final bet. The 3 means it’s very unlikely he has the 33. I can still only beat QJ though.

Anyhow, I know it’s a lot to take in, but this is my view and the motives to why I played it as such.

I know few will agree, but pokers full of different views. That’s probably why I love it so much.

I also confess that I may be wrong about this. If anyone wants to tell me why, please feel free. I’m prepared to do a 180 if someone can pick up on any inevitable flaws in my argument.

Cheers

snoops

[TightEnd]

OK, Please accept this as the view of someone who is tighter than you snoops and plays a far narrower range of hands in fewer situations

Even accepting you only have to call $5 against two opponents I would fold.

I am out of position, if I hit a flop i am first to act

The original raiser covers my whole stack. I find this to be an important consideration that I usually regret if I ignore. I have larger than usual reverse implied odds(which is what happens here) if I hit and he hits something bigger!!

KQ can play badly against a range of raising hands, most notably of course AQ  and AK. You hit say a K and bet out, first to act..if you are flat called you have no idea if you are ahead or not and the hand becomes hazardous. On a non coordinated board AK may flat call!

If I play, I am certainly playing it fast once I have top pair and not top kicker. I need to find out where I am.

If I may say so, you have an interesting and persistent penchant for minimum raising without the stone cold nuts when IMHO playing faster is often in order. Not meaning to be critical, but it is a theme in the hands you post on this board.

I expect I might think of this as a trait that could be used less whilst you would say that it is effective in drawing in fish with marginal hands who will miss or pay you off more than they will cost you money