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teddybloat
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« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2017, 05:31:20 AM »

Lovely to see the queen being wheeled out to meet some of the victims.

Madge can at least offer practical advice.

She recently negotiated a pay rise so her modest residence could undergo essential repairs.

Quote
The Queen has been awarded a 66% pay rise to fund a £369m 10-year refit of Buckingham Palace,...

369m would pay for sprinklers in half of the country's tower blocks. So it will be of great comfort to all at grenfall to be visited by a woman who has demanded that sum of money to be  spent on her family home. That their taxes will fund madges maintainance will no doubt lessen the anger felt about the grubby penny pinching and soft touch regulation that turned thier own homes to ash. At least one pensioners needs are being met in the capital by the welfare state, eh...

I do hope they remembered to bow and follow royal protocol such as waiting to be spoken to before speaking. It would be a sin if Madge felt disrespected whilst showing solidarity with her fellow londoners

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teddybloat
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« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2017, 05:55:55 AM »

this event now stands for something much more than a tragic incident.

its now becoming about class, and in particular the ruling class, their influence over us and in whose interests they exercise that influence.

are people who are landowners and whose parties lap up donations from millionaire landlords acting for the public good when they legislate building regulations, sit on planning committees, decide the scope of inquiries etc?

who decided that it was ok to go with a more flammable cladding as it was cheaper? in whose interest did they make that decision. what other financial or political motives may have influenced that decision. who benefitted financlially from that decision, what is their relationship to the people who made that decision?

tony benn said we shoud ask five questions of people in power:

Quote
in the course of my life I have developed five little democratic questions.

If one meets a powerful person--Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates--ask them five questions:

“What power have you got?

Where did you get it from?

In whose interests do you exercise it?

To whom are you accountable?

And how can we get rid of you?”

If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.


its time we started to shake some honest answers from the ruling class and then decide if we like those answers.

that burned out building stands for something. its more than human tragedy. its an insult to the people. the sight of it enrages me.

what the people of that community must feel when they look at it i cant begin to comprehend.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 05:59:32 AM by teddybloat » Logged
titaniumbean
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« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2017, 11:47:45 AM »

Lovely to see the queen being wheeled out to meet some of the victims.

Madge can at least offer practical advice.

She recently negotiated a pay rise so her modest residence could undergo essential repairs.

Quote
The Queen has been awarded a 66% pay rise to fund a £369m 10-year refit of Buckingham Palace,...

369m would pay for sprinklers in half of the country's tower blocks. So it will be of great comfort to all at grenfall to be visited by a woman who has demanded that sum of money to be  spent on her family home. That their taxes will fund madges maintainance will no doubt lessen the anger felt about the grubby penny pinching and soft touch regulation that turned thier own homes to ash. At least one pensioners needs are being met in the capital by the welfare state, eh...

I do hope they remembered to bow and follow royal protocol such as waiting to be spoken to before speaking. It would be a sin if Madge felt disrespected whilst showing solidarity with her fellow londoners




in 2015:  "Brand Finance’s calculations show that tourism revenue connected to the monarchy and its heritage has been valued at £535 million for 2015."

it actually gives a much higher figure (1.1billion) for the yearly increase to UK economy based on lots of other endlessly debatable additions in value to other brands/clothing lines that Kate wears etc etc

come back when you can make 160 million a year for the country. considering her age she probably works a lot harder by attending and holding so many events than many of the populace half her age.



so yeh this seems like a beyond mute point, especially compared to your valid points in your next post.
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2017, 12:04:24 PM »

Lovely to see the queen being wheeled out to meet some of the victims.

Madge can at least offer practical advice.

She recently negotiated a pay rise so her modest residence could undergo essential repairs.

Quote
The Queen has been awarded a 66% pay rise to fund a £369m 10-year refit of Buckingham Palace,...

369m would pay for sprinklers in half of the country's tower blocks. So it will be of great comfort to all at grenfall to be visited by a woman who has demanded that sum of money to be  spent on her family home. That their taxes will fund madges maintainance will no doubt lessen the anger felt about the grubby penny pinching and soft touch regulation that turned thier own homes to ash. At least one pensioners needs are being met in the capital by the welfare state, eh...

I do hope they remembered to bow and follow royal protocol such as waiting to be spoken to before speaking. It would be a sin if Madge felt disrespected whilst showing solidarity with her fellow londoners




in 2015:  "Brand Finance’s calculations show that tourism revenue connected to the monarchy and its heritage has been valued at £535 million for 2015."

it actually gives a much higher figure (1.1billion) for the yearly increase to UK economy based on lots of other endlessly debatable additions in value to other brands/clothing lines that Kate wears etc etc

come back when you can make 160 million a year for the country. considering her age she probably works a lot harder by attending and holding so many events than many of the populace half her age.



so yeh this seems like a beyond mute point, especially compared to your valid points in your next post.

I don't get this. We measure how good something is by how much money it makes? What about morality and basic decency? They are an affront to any and all ideas of fairness and equality. Hilary Mantel nailed it with the idea that they're probably lovely people but they themselves must realise the Monarchy is archaic and a relic for the past. Mantel thinks to be fair to them, let them oversee and set a timescale for their own dissolution. I reckon they'd all be better for it too.
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RED-DOG
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« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2017, 12:12:26 PM »

Lovely to see the queen being wheeled out to meet some of the victims.

Madge can at least offer practical advice.

She recently negotiated a pay rise so her modest residence could undergo essential repairs.

Quote
The Queen has been awarded a 66% pay rise to fund a £369m 10-year refit of Buckingham Palace,...

369m would pay for sprinklers in half of the country's tower blocks. So it will be of great comfort to all at grenfall to be visited by a woman who has demanded that sum of money to be  spent on her family home. That their taxes will fund madges maintainance will no doubt lessen the anger felt about the grubby penny pinching and soft touch regulation that turned thier own homes to ash. At least one pensioners needs are being met in the capital by the welfare state, eh...

I do hope they remembered to bow and follow royal protocol such as waiting to be spoken to before speaking. It would be a sin if Madge felt disrespected whilst showing solidarity with her fellow londoners




in 2015:  "Brand Finance’s calculations show that tourism revenue connected to the monarchy and its heritage has been valued at £535 million for 2015."

it actually gives a much higher figure (1.1billion) for the yearly increase to UK economy based on lots of other endlessly debatable additions in value to other brands/clothing lines that Kate wears etc etc

come back when you can make 160 million a year for the country. considering her age she probably works a lot harder by attending and holding so many events than many of the populace half her age.



so yeh this seems like a beyond mute point, especially compared to your valid points in your next post.

I don't get this. We measure how good something is by how much money it makes? What about morality and basic decency? They are an affront to any and all ideas of fairness and equality.

I don't agree with you. They are not an affront to my ideas of fairness and equality so that statement can't be correct.
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2017, 12:14:35 PM »

Lovely to see the queen being wheeled out to meet some of the victims.

Madge can at least offer practical advice.

She recently negotiated a pay rise so her modest residence could undergo essential repairs.

Quote
The Queen has been awarded a 66% pay rise to fund a £369m 10-year refit of Buckingham Palace,...

369m would pay for sprinklers in half of the country's tower blocks. So it will be of great comfort to all at grenfall to be visited by a woman who has demanded that sum of money to be  spent on her family home. That their taxes will fund madges maintainance will no doubt lessen the anger felt about the grubby penny pinching and soft touch regulation that turned thier own homes to ash. At least one pensioners needs are being met in the capital by the welfare state, eh...

I do hope they remembered to bow and follow royal protocol such as waiting to be spoken to before speaking. It would be a sin if Madge felt disrespected whilst showing solidarity with her fellow londoners




in 2015:  "Brand Finance’s calculations show that tourism revenue connected to the monarchy and its heritage has been valued at £535 million for 2015."

it actually gives a much higher figure (1.1billion) for the yearly increase to UK economy based on lots of other endlessly debatable additions in value to other brands/clothing lines that Kate wears etc etc

come back when you can make 160 million a year for the country. considering her age she probably works a lot harder by attending and holding so many events than many of the populace half her age.



so yeh this seems like a beyond mute point, especially compared to your valid points in your next post.

I don't get this. We measure how good something is by how much money it makes? What about morality and basic decency? They are an affront to any and all reasonable ideas regarding fairness and equality.

I don't agree with you. They are not an affront to my ideas of fairness and equality so that statement can't be correct.
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #66 on: June 17, 2017, 12:15:15 PM »

Lovely to see the queen being wheeled out to meet some of the victims.

Madge can at least offer practical advice.

She recently negotiated a pay rise so her modest residence could undergo essential repairs.

Quote
The Queen has been awarded a 66% pay rise to fund a £369m 10-year refit of Buckingham Palace,...

369m would pay for sprinklers in half of the country's tower blocks. So it will be of great comfort to all at grenfall to be visited by a woman who has demanded that sum of money to be  spent on her family home. That their taxes will fund madges maintainance will no doubt lessen the anger felt about the grubby penny pinching and soft touch regulation that turned thier own homes to ash. At least one pensioners needs are being met in the capital by the welfare state, eh...

I do hope they remembered to bow and follow royal protocol such as waiting to be spoken to before speaking. It would be a sin if Madge felt disrespected whilst showing solidarity with her fellow londoners




in 2015:  "Brand Finance’s calculations show that tourism revenue connected to the monarchy and its heritage has been valued at £535 million for 2015."

it actually gives a much higher figure (1.1billion) for the yearly increase to UK economy based on lots of other endlessly debatable additions in value to other brands/clothing lines that Kate wears etc etc

come back when you can make 160 million a year for the country. considering her age she probably works a lot harder by attending and holding so many events than many of the populace half her age.



so yeh this seems like a beyond mute point, especially compared to your valid points in your next post.

I don't get this. We measure how good something is by how much money it makes? What about morality and basic decency? They are an affront to any and all reasonable ideas regarding fairness and equality.

I don't agree with you. They are not an affront to my ideas of fairness and equality so that statement can't be correct.

Cool, I fixed my post.
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titaniumbean
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« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2017, 12:18:26 PM »

Lovely to see the queen being wheeled out to meet some of the victims.

Madge can at least offer practical advice.

She recently negotiated a pay rise so her modest residence could undergo essential repairs.

Quote
The Queen has been awarded a 66% pay rise to fund a £369m 10-year refit of Buckingham Palace,...

369m would pay for sprinklers in half of the country's tower blocks. So it will be of great comfort to all at grenfall to be visited by a woman who has demanded that sum of money to be  spent on her family home. That their taxes will fund madges maintainance will no doubt lessen the anger felt about the grubby penny pinching and soft touch regulation that turned thier own homes to ash. At least one pensioners needs are being met in the capital by the welfare state, eh...

I do hope they remembered to bow and follow royal protocol such as waiting to be spoken to before speaking. It would be a sin if Madge felt disrespected whilst showing solidarity with her fellow londoners




in 2015:  "Brand Finance’s calculations show that tourism revenue connected to the monarchy and its heritage has been valued at £535 million for 2015."

it actually gives a much higher figure (1.1billion) for the yearly increase to UK economy based on lots of other endlessly debatable additions in value to other brands/clothing lines that Kate wears etc etc

come back when you can make 160 million a year for the country. considering her age she probably works a lot harder by attending and holding so many events than many of the populace half her age.



so yeh this seems like a beyond mute point, especially compared to your valid points in your next post.

I don't get this. We measure how good something is by how much money it makes? What about morality and basic decency? They are an affront to any and all ideas of fairness and equality. Hilary Mantel nailed it with the idea that they're probably lovely people but they themselves must realise the Monarchy is archaic and a relic for the past. Mantel thinks to be fair to them, let them oversee and set a timescale for their own dissolution. I reckon they'd all be better for it too.


I've not made an argument for yay or nay for them in the future just that this 'oh they suck, xyz spend (but im not considering the gain)" is an unhelpful way of thinking about it. if they were costing just -300m a year they wouldn't still be here!

Given that all they really do is do things for other people and provide a face for the nation (which it turns out sells pretty well) but have very little authority of note I don't see it as an affront in the same way bankers/media/politicians all cozying up together to profit is anywhere near the same.
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buffyslayer1
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« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2017, 12:18:43 PM »

Lovely to see the queen being wheeled out to meet some of the victims.

Madge can at least offer practical advice.

She recently negotiated a pay rise so her modest residence could undergo essential repairs.

Quote
The Queen has been awarded a 66% pay rise to fund a £369m 10-year refit of Buckingham Palace,...

369m would pay for sprinklers in half of the country's tower blocks. So it will be of great comfort to all at grenfall to be visited by a woman who has demanded that sum of money to be  spent on her family home. That their taxes will fund madges maintainance will no doubt lessen the anger felt about the grubby penny pinching and soft touch regulation that turned thier own homes to ash. At least one pensioners needs are being met in the capital by the welfare state, eh...

I do hope they remembered to bow and follow royal protocol such as waiting to be spoken to before speaking. It would be a sin if Madge felt disrespected whilst showing solidarity with her fellow londoners




in 2015:  "Brand Finance’s calculations show that tourism revenue connected to the monarchy and its heritage has been valued at £535 million for 2015."

it actually gives a much higher figure (1.1billion) for the yearly increase to UK economy based on lots of other endlessly debatable additions in value to other brands/clothing lines that Kate wears etc etc

come back when you can make 160 million a year for the country. considering her age she probably works a lot harder by attending and holding so many events than many of the populace half her age.



so yeh this seems like a beyond mute point, especially compared to your valid points in your next post.

Those figures are very misleading and likely just flat out wrong if you dig into the detail.

The figure originates from a survey which visit Britain did asking how many people come to Britain for it's heritage and culture. They simply took the % that answered yes to this and applied it to the total tourism revenue in the UK. Obviously all heritage and culture is down to just the monarchy.
Visit Britian actually withdrew this claim shortly after being challenged on it. However this number has still persisted in the wider media.
Republic which is a anti monarchy pressure group specifically asked the tourism board if they could state that the monarchy added to Britiabs tourism and they admitted there was no way to prove this and it was unquantifiable.

If you look at the most visited paid for attractions in the UK windors castle comes in at around 18 below such things as the Romans baths. It could be argued actually without a monarchy tourism would increase as all royal residencies would be opened up to the public.

As for all these associated additions like selling more mugs/plates whatever it may be the numbers as very often just made up and can't really be calculated.

Anecdotally I was a buyer at a major uk retailer and we ran lots of jubilee branded products  during jubliee year. Along with all other major retailers (against my judgement I was overruled by my director).
 All the product lines across every retailer absolutely bombed and we were left with huge amounts of stock (it was our worst peformong dinningware range) which had to be sold at quite a loss. Other retailers including John Lewis where you would have expected it to sell well had the same issues.

For what it's worth tourism to the UK actually went down from the previous year during the jubilee which also supports some evidence that tourism numbers are vastly over estimated.

Of course they add some value in regards to tourism no doubt but it's quite likely vastly overestimated.
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titaniumbean
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« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2017, 12:21:49 PM »

yeh this is why I only used the much smaller figure, and noted that it all seems wishy washy, I also read about Republics side but given their first line is we hate the monarchy they pretty much lose all objective credence! either way as in my previous post just using one side of a set of figures is hardly a correct way to judge something and shows your pre-existing bias.

edit I also enjoyed Republics argument that they work for us so anything they spend is them themselves losing money and anything they own or bring in is 'the peoples' therefore they lose money therefore abolish them lol yay our stated goal has been vindicated. they don't follow their logic through to note that surely anything spent is us spending and they expend and bring in nothing thereby breaking even lol not this massive negative figure.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 12:26:47 PM by titaniumbean » Logged
kukushkin88
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« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2017, 12:28:08 PM »

Lovely to see the queen being wheeled out to meet some of the victims.

Madge can at least offer practical advice.

She recently negotiated a pay rise so her modest residence could undergo essential repairs.

Quote
The Queen has been awarded a 66% pay rise to fund a £369m 10-year refit of Buckingham Palace,...

369m would pay for sprinklers in half of the country's tower blocks. So it will be of great comfort to all at grenfall to be visited by a woman who has demanded that sum of money to be  spent on her family home. That their taxes will fund madges maintainance will no doubt lessen the anger felt about the grubby penny pinching and soft touch regulation that turned thier own homes to ash. At least one pensioners needs are being met in the capital by the welfare state, eh...

I do hope they remembered to bow and follow royal protocol such as waiting to be spoken to before speaking. It would be a sin if Madge felt disrespected whilst showing solidarity with her fellow londoners




in 2015:  "Brand Finance’s calculations show that tourism revenue connected to the monarchy and its heritage has been valued at £535 million for 2015."

it actually gives a much higher figure (1.1billion) for the yearly increase to UK economy based on lots of other endlessly debatable additions in value to other brands/clothing lines that Kate wears etc etc

come back when you can make 160 million a year for the country. considering her age she probably works a lot harder by attending and holding so many events than many of the populace half her age.



so yeh this seems like a beyond mute point, especially compared to your valid points in your next post.

I don't get this. We measure how good something is by how much money it makes? What about morality and basic decency? They are an affront to any and all ideas of fairness and equality. Hilary Mantel nailed it with the idea that they're probably lovely people but they themselves must realise the Monarchy is archaic and a relic for the past. Mantel thinks to be fair to them, let them oversee and set a timescale for their own dissolution. I reckon they'd all be better for it too.


I've not made an argument for yay or nay for them in the future just that this 'oh they suck, xyz spend (but im not considering the gain)" is an unhelpful way of thinking about it. if they were costing just -300m a year they wouldn't still be here!

Given that all they really do is do things for other people and provide a face for the nation (which it turns out sells pretty well) but have very little authority of note I don't see it as an affront in the same way bankers/media/politicians all cozying up together to profit is anywhere near the same.

It's also probably worth remembering they were widely hated and getting treated like TM is currently when Diana died. Incredibly it was getting Alastair Campbell running some PR for them that turned things around.
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titaniumbean
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« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2017, 12:33:27 PM »

yeh i'm vastly indifferent to them, just don't enjoy the lopsidedness of these sensationalist headlines/thought processes.


Queenie has already done infinitely more than Theresabot has managed. The interview with her is excruciating to watch, she set herself to the pre-programmed squrim out of answering questions PR mode and just said what she wanted to say and didn't even hear the questions. Watching her half run out of the church (whilst shes probably encouraged to by the protection unit because of the crowds and the emotion running high) she just seemed spineless and in congruent with being a strong and stable leader (lol manifesto soundbites).
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kukushkin88
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« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2017, 12:41:47 PM »

this event now stands for something much more than a tragic incident.

its now becoming about class, and in particular the ruling class, their influence over us and in whose interests they exercise that influence.

are people who are landowners and whose parties lap up donations from millionaire landlords acting for the public good when they legislate building regulations, sit on planning committees, decide the scope of inquiries etc?

who decided that it was ok to go with a more flammable cladding as it was cheaper? in whose interest did they make that decision. what other financial or political motives may have influenced that decision. who benefitted financlially from that decision, what is their relationship to the people who made that decision?

tony benn said we shoud ask five questions of people in power:

Quote
in the course of my life I have developed five little democratic questions.

If one meets a powerful person--Adolf Hitler, Joe Stalin or Bill Gates--ask them five questions:

“What power have you got?

Where did you get it from?

In whose interests do you exercise it?

To whom are you accountable?

And how can we get rid of you?”

If you cannot get rid of the people who govern you, you do not live in a democratic system.


its time we started to shake some honest answers from the ruling class and then decide if we like those answers.

that burned out building stands for something. its more than human tragedy. its an insult to the people. the sight of it enrages me.

what the people of that community must feel when they look at it i cant begin to comprehend.

Lots of love for hearing from Tony Benn, I still think you're probably a nutter but nice job.
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teddybloat
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« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2017, 12:51:58 PM »

i dont want to derial, so will refrain from arguing about tourist income. but i will say that  cleopatra and the egyption pharohs make a lot of money for egypt whilst being dead for a millenia or two. we dont need madge trolloping around to get tourists in.

also regardless of what i feel about theresa may, the fact that she had to ask permission to form a government after recieving a mandate from the people is sickening.

speaking of sicking lets return my ire to the ruling class.

we have a situation here where 100's of people have died due to poor social housing. lets call it what it is. in a rich borough where land and property prices have been chased up out of the reach of ordinary people,  people were stuffed into anachronistic high rise slum accomodation. house prices rises = good though, innit. fuck the kids, fuck the old, fuck the ill.

they warned repeatedly that their housing wasn't only inadequate but also unsafe.

they were ignored.

they were told their building was ugly and the surrounding area would be improved by cladding it in cheap flammible material.

the non flammible version of that material costs £2 per square meter more than the stuff that burns readily.

they were told they would have to make do with the cheap stuff.

we have disabled kids being housed on the 11th floor of these high rise slums. austerity, innit. not enough to be allowing people sponge of Honest Working Families.

no more free lunches for the workshy benefit chasers. so lets put disabled kids up in a tower wrapped in combustable decoration. and we have been told that we should direct our anger at the people below and around us. immigrants, benefit cheats, spongers, asylum seekers, the ill, the disabled, the poor, the young, the old. all draining the system.

the euphemisms pervade every political interview Difficult Decisions. Tough Choices. Austerity

fuck that.

lets turn our ire at the people ruling us.

Quote
What power have you got?

Where did you get it from?

In whose interests do you exercise it?

To whom are you accountable?

And how can we get rid of you?”



we tried to solve social housing decades ago. how is it in 2017 we are putting kids up these towers, telling them their home is too ugly for the surrounding bourgeois and then decorating them with cheap flammible materials? how is this ok?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 01:06:25 PM by teddybloat » Logged
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« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2017, 12:53:32 PM »

I find it detestable in 21st Century Britain we have an unelected monarchy where birth right elevates you to a life of Riley.  Personally I'd place them against the wall if they wish to continue if they are happy to stand down I am sure they could keep one stately home.
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