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Author Topic: Geoff Banks & the tongue-wobblers  (Read 5351 times)
tikay
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« on: October 25, 2017, 09:23:46 AM »


I thoroughly enjoyed this article.


https://geoffbanksracing.com/2017/10/24/is-geoff-banks-the-lamest-bookie-in-the-world/





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Skippy
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« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2017, 10:09:56 AM »


Top Tikay trolling this :-). There's only one bloke giving his tongue a wobble here.

The truth of the matter is that anyone who is betting and is in any way trying has accounts with several bookies and will be taking the best price on offer (e.g. Tips for Tikay). So yes, Geoff will have accounts that only bet with him when he is the standout price. According to Geoff, that makes all these accounts an arber/bot trader/whatever and should be restricted.
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tikay
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« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2017, 10:17:48 AM »


Maybe so, but the big Firms, in a corporate world, can't speak their mind in the way Mr Banks did.

And people tellies outright lies on Twitter & not being accountable for what they write gets my goat.

I really enjoyed reading that piece. He may not be an angel, but neither are many on the other side. "All bookies are shite & all punters are good children" does not wash with me.
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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2017, 10:33:05 AM »

An interesting read, thanks Tikay.

We don't often consider things from 'their' perspective and maybe it would give me a more balanced view to gambling if I did.
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tikay
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2017, 10:41:01 AM »

An interesting read, thanks Tikay.

We don't often consider things from 'their' perspective and maybe it would give me a more balanced view to gambling if I did.

Amen to that. I don't like to see the same unbalanced debate from one side (well either side) all the time. There are 2 sides to it.

Clearly, I don't expect sharps to love bookies, but I do tire of some of the "same old same old" over the top nonsense that is peddled.

All that aside, I genuinely thought it was a refreshing article to read. Someone in the corporate world telling it how they see (right or wrong) it is so rare.

Not all bookies are bastards, not all punters are angels. Or vice-versa..... 
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« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2017, 02:09:06 PM »

The trouble is the guy could be a 'rec' and had his first bet on a 7/1 shot that was 7/1 on betfair at the time.  Therefore can't be accused of arbing.  If the said beast goes off 3/1 sp then in all likelihood it would be game set and match for the account with most firms.  Even 'recs' land on gambles simply by chance now and again.

I would love to know if you went up to Geoff oncourse and had the same bet as a first timer in exactly the same situation as this guy did online whether he would then refuse your subsequent bets in the same manner when he had to stand face to face with you and embarrass himself by effectively closing your account face to face after one bet?

It is easy for these layers to close accounts behind the smoke screen of the internet.  Trading decision/don't have to give a reason via live chat with some copy and paste min wage operator who is watching Loose women whilst copying the usual phrases to you.  Traders who are happy to take your money when you are clueless and will wine and dine you at Cheltenham but impossible to talk to when the business doesn't quite suit them as much. Would they be able to do the same man to man face to face if the same thing happened on course?  I doubt it very much.

Getting on at the racecourse for decent lumps (even at commission free/premium charge free prices which are shorter on betfair to real money close to the off) is so much easier than online or in shops.  I don't think i have ever had a bet oncourse that was bigger on the machine in years.  I have been knocked back three times in total on course but still laid a bet in all three situations that you would need an unrestricted account online to get with most firms.  The reason because the layers would be totally embarrassed knocking you back in person and most of them are proper bookmakers who take a bet.   Secondly, as Geoff has said himself, these bookmakers don't have casinos to cover the loss leader aspect of modern online bookmaking so they have to lay bets to make a living.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 02:25:49 PM by arbboy » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2017, 07:31:47 PM »

The thing that gets me is the black and white, you're either a rec or a pro arber. Surely there is a grey area. I'm not a pro, nor an arber, i'm not using sophisticated software to get on at a price that's bigger than the machine, I just like a bet and want to do it at best price. That alone puts me in the "arber" category by the sounds of it and I've been restricted in places due to this logic I'd imagine (despite betting relatively small amounts). A bookie has to go best price sometimes, to drum up some trade. You need to be competitive on price. But then if someone bets on these "competitive" prices and wins they get shut down? seems a strange way to run your show.

They industry in general see to hide behind the term "recreational" gambler, if you're trying to win or get decent amounts on then you can't just be doing it for fun, you must be a pro. But then what's recreational about people punting thousands on online casino's or FOBT's in the shops, yet no-one ever says "you've betting too much here for this to be recreational, you're now restricted". 

I agreed with him a while back, when he did an article saying there were people opening multiple accounts with him and taking advantage of "matched betting" offers so i do see his point of view on some things, just not here. Last month a fella I speak to on twitter was shut down by him after 2 "'lumpy" tennis bets (£250). One was voided after the FAV pulled out injured mid-game (he'd backed the dog), the other was a winning underdog where he claimed the favourite underperformed ...
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arbboy
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« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2017, 11:36:58 PM »

4 thoughts on “Is Geoff Banks the lamest bookie in the world?”

smartersig says:
October 25, 2017 at 07:35
Geoff, what is wrong with a punter, not this particular punter by the way in your blog, getting up in the morning, deciding which horses he wants to back, going to the internet and seeing which firms have the biggest price on his three or four selections for the day. Lets say two of them are biggest on Betfair, one is biggest with you and another is biggest with William Hills. He then proceeds to back them all with the afore mentioned bookmakers. The next day his account is closed with you and william hill but not with Betfair. Why is this punter somehow dishonest or a parasite.

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Geoff Banks Racing says:
October 25, 2017 at 18:53
\because he’s not a punter. You haven’t read what I have been saying-these people are not ‘punters’ – it’s naive of you to maintain that that is what they are.

When GB says this he really does sound a clown in 2017.  I wonder if when looking for house/car/business insurance and goes to gocompare.com (like punters go to oddschecker.com) and selects the cheapest option whether he considers himself a parasite to the insurance industry and it would be totally acceptable for them to refuse his business and see what he said about that.

Not sure what the definition of 'a punter' is now if you are not allowed to shop around online for the best price like GB surely does for his insurance on price comparison sites for his personal car/home insurance.  Does that not make him a customer of the insurance industry just because he chooses not to get totally shafted by taking the auto renewal price offered each year?  Maybe he does set fire to money year after year to his 'friendly local independent' insurance broker for his fleet of Bentley's because the customer service is so good just like his own firm.  lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

So when i go racing at uttoxeter and take top price on offer every single time with the 8 rails bookmakers i am not a punter Geoff? I never arb and haven't arbed since probably 2011 (before GB signs up and asks why my name is arbboy - would be nice to see him sign up and try to talk his way out of his posts) when back then the industry was literally setting fire to money and it was nonsensical to not arb when you could get fortunes on risk free.

You are only a punter if you have total disregard for your own money?  It isn't 1988 anymore Geoff.  Where everyone has one credit account on the phone with their local bookie and just does their money quietly like they did to your dad year after year and the only reason you have been afforded the position in the industry you have.

The easiest way to get rid of arbers/pro punters/parasites/bots Geoff is to get your prices right.  That costs money, a lot more money than you probably pay your loltraders.  If you have a market stall selling fruit and veg and you are offering 6 bananas for a quid when everyone else is only offering 4 would you be surprised that you are getting knocked over by customers trying to get on?  It is GCSE level business studies stuff.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 12:07:17 AM by arbboy » Logged
nellberg
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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2017, 09:38:48 AM »

Given his blog post, last night his tweet before the Everton game was bizarre

"people now backing Everton
Below 5/1 on betfair
5/1 with Banks!"

So he uses the fact that his firm is offering a better price than betfair as a selling point ... but then if you back it he can shut you down as you'd be a suspected arber?
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arbboy
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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2017, 12:06:01 PM »

Given his blog post, last night his tweet before the Everton game was bizarre

"people now backing Everton
Below 5/1 on betfair
5/1 with Banks!"

So he uses the fact that his firm is offering a better price than betfair as a selling point ... but then if you back it he can shut you down as you'd be a suspected arber?

Kind of sums the guy up really.  Chirps a lot of nonsense in the modern world and relies solely on the silver spoon 2nd generation firm passed down to him by his much more talented father.

Going back to the arbing thing.  It is really hard for a standard bf punter to be a profitable arber when they pay 5% commission (this is before any potential (albeit unlikely) premium charges on top of commission).  99% of punters they close and use this argument with just doesn't wash.   You can't back something at 11/10 and lay it at 2.06 on bf and make a profit.  If you back a 5/1 shot and can lay 5.7 you are barely making a penny after 5% commission.  I would be amazed if bf was shorter than 5.7 when banks was hanging 5/1 Everton therefore he is simply taking a view/giving it away after laying Chelski to green up his book.  One thing he will not be doing in the vast majority of bets laid to punters on Everton is laying an arber.

 So in this example betfair exchange is simply just another bookmaker for the punter to choose to bet with not a profitable laying devise for 99% of punters yet the firms continue to roll out the excuses about arbing when genuine punters have bets like this and choose to close them down.

Just like the banana example earlier if you get your prices wrong/choose to offer a market leading price why are you surprised when price sensitive customers/parasites who you don't want to do business with you knock on your door?  Get the prices right and everything else looks after itself.  

GB is trying to be a corner shop in turnover terms but compete with aldi/lidl (bet365/betfair) on price with a 1/1000th of the volume they have.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 12:34:08 PM by arbboy » Logged
arbboy
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2017, 01:48:38 PM »

https://twitter.com/jamesaknight/status/922495240807878656

Coral's head of horse racing trying to justify why they don't take a bet even in markets that you can't arb debating with several well known judges in the game following coral/lolbrokes decision to not hold pricewise prices.  Pricewise as a concept should have been scrapped 10 years ago.  Amazing it has lasted this long.  As has been discussed the game was a lot more fun when it was bookmaker v punters opinion.  Plenty of punters still have opinions without a bf market being formed but not many lol's have an opinion that their bosses are willing to back up with hard cash that's the crux of the problem here.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/news/ladbrokes-coral-end-commercially-nonsensical-paper-price-guarantee/305774?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=Monday%20News&utm_content=Lads%20Coral
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 01:55:38 PM by arbboy » Logged
JoeBeevers
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2017, 10:00:48 PM »

If bookmakers are so keen to ban price sensitive customers and arbers then why do they provide/ allow/ even pay for feeds on odds comparison and bet matching websites?

These sites have to have permission to use the data. Anyone using a matched betting site is not a rec and bookmakers provide them live feeds. Bookmakers pay to be on some odds comparison sites and those most prominently placed pay the most. Some are even so inundated with bookmakers wanting to advertise that the comparison sites have been known to turn them away or put them on waiting lists or sell spots to the highest bidder.

I'm guessing it's because marketing want to drive numbers and achieve targets and so pay to get new accounts (any new accounts) whilst the accountants close them as fast as they are opened because they are not profitable business.

It doesn't make business sense at all.

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arbboy
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2017, 06:06:30 PM »

If bookmakers are so keen to ban price sensitive customers and arbers then why do they provide/ allow/ even pay for feeds on odds comparison and bet matching websites?

These sites have to have permission to use the data. Anyone using a matched betting site is not a rec and bookmakers provide them live feeds. Bookmakers pay to be on some odds comparison sites and those most prominently placed pay the most. Some are even so inundated with bookmakers wanting to advertise that the comparison sites have been known to turn them away or put them on waiting lists or sell spots to the highest bidder.

I'm guessing it's because marketing want to drive numbers and achieve targets and so pay to get new accounts (any new accounts) whilst the accountants close them as fast as they are opened because they are not profitable business.

It doesn't make business sense at all.



I have been asking this same question for years.  Bwin in their prime were never on oddschecker years ago for this very logical reason.  When i was working for Canbet in 2003 and entering the UK market i think we had to pay £25000 just to appear on oddschecker as a one off intro payment before any additional revenue income from clicks from the site.  It certainly wasn't cheap and we had to wait for another firm to leave before we could jump into their slot.  God knows what it must cost nowadays to sit on oddschecker.
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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2017, 10:33:21 AM »

On our site we went on oddsportal 3 months ago, its not cheap (monthly fee + pretty chunking GGR share) we've done about 300k turnover through them and lost about 15k to the accounts, we haven't restricted that many of them because they aren't flagging up but they are all over promotions and boosted prices etc. Funny fact, first odds promo we ever did was (IIRC) Liverpool vs Hoffenhiem where globally Liverpool were 1.77 or something and we made them 2.0. We took about 20k on the game including multis and only about 2500 of it was on the outright (which was obviously a monster arb/value spot) and it's crazy to think anyone would bet this game without betting that selection, this was before the oddportal affiliation. The first one we did after that we took about 40k and 30k of it on the boosted price, including several spots where the same person tried to open multiple accounts and bet it, like you say, odds comparison sites don't bring the types of customers you want. Also - if you're going to be on an odds comparison site, you really need to have competitive odds or you'll just be advertising the fact your prices are worse than your rivals.

I think it's a case of, all your competitors are there...so you kinda need to be there too.  A lot of these sites own other really good affiliate websites and hey say you have to be on the odds site first before you get the chance to go on the better spots.
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« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2018, 10:19:57 PM »

https://geoffbanksracing.com/2018/03/17/cheltenham-the-bookies-view-2/

GB's latest ramblings after Cheltenham.
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