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Author Topic: FOBT's cut to £2 maximum stake  (Read 18748 times)
SuperJez
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« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2018, 11:41:28 PM »

Quote
Sorry, my mistake i think. Was thinking casino/online slots so you're prob right about how they're set up in the shops. As you were.

I think you are correct in that there are currently ways you can put a bet of larger than £2 through an FOBT slot with one press - but making it £2 per spin max with £500 top prize really keeps the slot games on them just as lethal as they are now for the desperate.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 11:49:15 PM by SuperJez » Logged
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« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2018, 12:16:44 AM »

Every time my coin jar gets full i take great pleasure in dumping the lot into a FOBT in a number of local betting shops who don't take my bets and i really hate the shop manager before cashing the ticket out without playing at all.  Why do people pay 10% of their coins value for those change counting machines at supermarkets when you can really piss off a betting shop manager you hate and force him to leave his role late having to count bundles of change at the end of his shift?

At least now the limit is £2 i will be able to justify playing in 5p and 10p coins rather than notes should i ever get asked why i am doing what i am doing.  Long live the FOBT's.  Definitely providing a social service to the community.

Quality
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« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2018, 12:54:04 AM »

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Sorry, my mistake i think. Was thinking casino/online slots so you're prob right about how they're set up in the shops. As you were.

I think you are correct in that there are currently ways you can put a bet of larger than £2 through an FOBT slot with one press - but making it £2 per spin max with £500 top prize really keeps the slot games on them just as lethal as they are now for the desperate.

I am getting confused, how can £2 a spin be just as lethal as £100 a spin?    It is likely to take you an hour minimum to go through £100 rather than 30 seconds?   Would have to put in some serious grind to lose a weeks wages under the new rules.   If you go on tilt for five minutes, you are likely doing a tenner rather than a monkey?   If Hills and Ladbrokes do close a load of shops, there is going to be less opportunity to develop a serious gambling problem too? 



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arbboy
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« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2018, 01:04:21 AM »

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Sorry, my mistake i think. Was thinking casino/online slots so you're prob right about how they're set up in the shops. As you were.

I think you are correct in that there are currently ways you can put a bet of larger than £2 through an FOBT slot with one press - but making it £2 per spin max with £500 top prize really keeps the slot games on them just as lethal as they are now for the desperate.

I am getting confused, how can £2 a spin be just as lethal as £100 a spin?    It is likely to take you an hour minimum to go through £100 rather than 30 seconds?   Would have to put in some serious grind to lose a weeks wages under the new rules.   If you go on tilt for five minutes, you are likely doing a tenner rather than a monkey?   If Hills and Ladbrokes do close a load of shops, there is going to be less opportunity to develop a serious gambling problem too?  





The slots have low 90% pay outs compared to 97.3% for roulette.  Therefore you are doing your cash much quicker. I would imagine the average slot player has a spin every 5? seconds compared to a roulette player who even allowing for the absolute minimum of 20 seconds realistically is taking close to a minute to place their bets every time unless just auto repeat every spin.

If they have 12 spins for every 1 spin on roulette at four times faster losing rate that's effectively 48 spins EV wise at £2 a spin with the four times faster losing rate for every one spin on roulette where they can stake £100 max.   Lot of slots players just have 'auto spin' on to play at the fastest speed possible.  Even if you wanted to repeat your bet on roulette you still have to click the repeat bet button and hit bet every time.

I would imagine the average punter irons his money out at a similar rate of knots between both products.  I have seen people iron out £100 in slots very quickly.  I still think £100 roulette punters will lose their cash quicker but very few bet £100 a spin.  The £20 roulette punter will probably lose his cash long term slower than a £2 slots player.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 01:07:32 AM by arbboy » Logged
Woodsey
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« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2018, 04:32:27 AM »

Do your cash faster than roulette? Didn’t know that was possible    Cheesy
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SuperJez
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« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2018, 06:03:35 AM »

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Sorry, my mistake i think. Was thinking casino/online slots so you're prob right about how they're set up in the shops. As you were.

I think you are correct in that there are currently ways you can put a bet of larger than £2 through an FOBT slot with one press - but making it £2 per spin max with £500 top prize really keeps the slot games on them just as lethal as they are now for the desperate.

I am getting confused, how can £2 a spin be just as lethal as £100 a spin?    It is likely to take you an hour minimum to go through £100 rather than 30 seconds?   Would have to put in some serious grind to lose a weeks wages under the new rules.   If you go on tilt for five minutes, you are likely doing a tenner rather than a monkey?   If Hills and Ladbrokes do close a load of shops, there is going to be less opportunity to develop a serious gambling problem too?  





More exposure to the house edge as money is recycled more and the player has far less chance of hitting a win that would cause them to walk away.  On the £50 bets which get you several enhanced spins or whatever (as Jamier-Host points out these are possible via fortune spin type things at the moment) they stand much more chance of busting very quickly or winning an amount that would end the session.  The total amount wagered at a negative expectation is less.  £2 spins at 90% are lethal as an initial £100 stake gets recycled many times swiftly and gives the player much less chance of hitting a win that will cause them to end the session but much more exposure to the house edge.  If a player is not a multi billionaire and only has access to x amount of money they stand a far greater chance of losing it all playing £2 a go and recycling than doing only a few large bets.  Of course if they will never stop during the session no matter what they win its irrelevant and both options will end them.  £2 spins play out a lot quicker than you might imagine and the house edge soon takes it's toll.  Either way the current revenue from the slots portion of FOBT's is not going to be materially affected by a £2 max stake.

« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 06:06:59 AM by SuperJez » Logged
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« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2018, 07:57:29 AM »

Every time my coin jar gets full i take great pleasure in dumping the lot into a FOBT in a number of local betting shops who don't take my bets and i really hate the shop manager before cashing the ticket out without playing at all.  Why do people pay 10% of their coins value for those change counting machines at supermarkets when you can really piss off a betting shop manager you hate and force him to leave his role late having to count bundles of change at the end of his shift?

At least now the limit is £2 i will be able to justify playing in 5p and 10p coins rather than notes should i ever get asked why i am doing what i am doing.  Long live the FOBT's.  Definitely providing a social service to the community.

Haha. So good at finding an edge. Sounds great fun. I'd love to see you do this..do you try and catch their eye while yr filling the machine up with a smug look.  I know I would Smiley
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« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2018, 08:08:55 AM »

Slot players also unaffected

Plenty of people play for >£2 a spin

I have never ever played slots on a FOBT.  How can they play for more than £2 a spin when the max spin is £2 and the max prize is £500 same as amusement arcades limits?  Why would you play for much more than £2 a spin when the top prize is only a monkey?  Casino slots have £5 max and £20000 jackpot.

I've never checked all the online slots, but the highest I've seen is £90 a spin on some of the 243 line games.

Sure but they are not subject to uk high street legal rules.  Think they are called B1/B2/B3 limit machines each has a different level.

Currently you can play "super spins" on slots in a bookies. Have 5 spins for £20, £30 or £50 quid. Still £500 quid jacky. They were brought in a few years ago. Considering they're under the microscope about responsible gambling in general, it was a crazy decision. Hard to justify it as offering "recreational gambling" as they like to term it when they knock you back OTC, it didn't get mentioned much in the debate but if I was one of the people trying to get it knocked down to £2 a spin it would have been my first port of call.

"You claim to be interested in responsible gambling, why have you just increased the max stake on slots by x25?"
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Doobs
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« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2018, 08:55:36 AM »

Quote
Sorry, my mistake i think. Was thinking casino/online slots so you're prob right about how they're set up in the shops. As you were.

I think you are correct in that there are currently ways you can put a bet of larger than £2 through an FOBT slot with one press - but making it £2 per spin max with £500 top prize really keeps the slot games on them just as lethal as they are now for the desperate.

I am getting confused, how can £2 a spin be just as lethal as £100 a spin?    It is likely to take you an hour minimum to go through £100 rather than 30 seconds?   Would have to put in some serious grind to lose a weeks wages under the new rules.   If you go on tilt for five minutes, you are likely doing a tenner rather than a monkey?   If Hills and Ladbrokes do close a load of shops, there is going to be less opportunity to develop a serious gambling problem too?  





The slots have low 90% pay outs compared to 97.3% for roulette.  Therefore you are doing your cash much quicker. I would imagine the average slot player has a spin every 5? seconds compared to a roulette player who even allowing for the absolute minimum of 20 seconds realistically is taking close to a minute to place their bets every time unless just auto repeat every spin.

If they have 12 spins for every 1 spin on roulette at four times faster losing rate that's effectively 48 spins EV wise at £2 a spin with the four times faster losing rate for every one spin on roulette where they can stake £100 max.   Lot of slots players just have 'auto spin' on to play at the fastest speed possible.  Even if you wanted to repeat your bet on roulette you still have to click the repeat bet button and hit bet every time.

I would imagine the average punter irons his money out at a similar rate of knots between both products.  I have seen people iron out £100 in slots very quickly.  I still think £100 roulette punters will lose their cash quicker but very few bet £100 a spin.  The £20 roulette punter will probably lose his cash long term slower than a £2 slots player.

The post I replied to says FOBTs slots, which will have to follow the new rules?   So they have the same minimum spin time, won't they?   

This argument about very few punters betting £100 a time is a bit tiresome. It may be a small proportion of all FOBTs punters, but surely a much higher proportion of £100 a spin FOBT punters are going to have gambling problems than in the general FOBT punter population.   

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« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2018, 09:11:30 AM »


Today's "Times" suggests that the Government only gave the green light to these reforms on the basis that they would not be introduced until some time in 2020, so 2 years down the line, maybe more.

Plenty of time for further procrastination then.
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« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2018, 09:28:43 AM »

The GBGB have released a statement (below) on the decision.

“The Greyhound Board of Great Britain notes the announcement by the government that the maximum stake on FOBTs will be reduced to £2 and welcomes the government’s commitment to address the issue of problem gambling.

The GBGB is concerned, however, that the stakes reduction will cause further migration away from the high street to online and offshore platforms that are currently outside of the scope of the voluntary levy paid on retail greyhound turnover to the British Greyhound Racing Fund, which is vital for the Board to meet its welfare and integrity commitments.

Should the predicted widespread closure of betting shops eventuate, there could be three unwelcome consequences for the sport. Firstly, there is likely to be a reduction in retail greyhound betting turnover, which would reduce the amount collected through the voluntary levy. Secondly, it is possible that there will be an adverse impact on the value of media rights received by tracks from retail operators. Finally, there may be an increase in online betting, which is largely unregulated and is currently outside of the scope of the voluntary levy.

The GBGB has been in negotiations with bookmakers for a considerable amount of time about extending the voluntary levy to include online and offshore greyhound betting turnover. This issue now needs to be urgently resolved or concluded so that GBGB can fulfil its welfare obligations as outlined in its Greyhound Commitment.”
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« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2018, 09:37:28 AM »


Today's "Times" suggests that the Government only gave the green light to these reforms on the basis that they would not be introduced until some time in 2020, so 2 years down the line, maybe more.

Plenty of time for further procrastination then.

Such a cop out that is. No wonder the shares didn't move much, although I suppose the US news earlier in the week helped balance things.

I worked in bookies before and during the intro of the FOBTs and remember being surprised they were allowed. This was when casino games could only be found in an actual casino or online. I even had to wait 24hrs after registering for a casino in Birmingham before I could actually go in and play!

It basically turned the shops into mini casinos and changed the atmosphere. There was more focus huddled round the machines than on the screens showing the racing, and it just used to twist people up. Sure, people got pissed off sometimes when they did their cash on the horses/dogs, but never to the extremes that people regularly did from shovelling money into the roulette. So much easier to chase your dough compared to shamefully looking the cashier in the eye as you handed over a wedge for some nag in the next at Sandown.

Despite the industry background, I can't feel sorry for the (chain) bookmakers here. The betting shop as a species has been on a path to extinction for years, but they've managed to keep it alive and even reproducing with a bit of FOBT/fruity gene splicing. Without that, mobile sports betting would have shrunk the population of shops years ago. The bigger companies all have digital operations that drive the bulk of their revenues anyway, so the real losers will be the independents who finally go the way of video shops and succumb to our changing behaviours.

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« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2018, 09:40:33 AM »


Should the predicted widespread closure of betting shops eventuate, there could be three unwelcome consequences for the sport. Firstly, there is likely to be a reduction in retail greyhound betting turnover, which would reduce the amount collected through the voluntary levy. Secondly, it is possible that there will be an adverse impact on the value of media rights received by tracks from retail operators. Finally, there may be an increase in online betting, which is largely unregulated and is currently outside of the scope of the voluntary levy.

Didn't realise the sport didn't get the same levy revenue from online vs offline. That is a shame and should be rectified.
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« Reply #43 on: May 18, 2018, 09:44:25 AM »

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Sorry, my mistake i think. Was thinking casino/online slots so you're prob right about how they're set up in the shops. As you were.

I think you are correct in that there are currently ways you can put a bet of larger than £2 through an FOBT slot with one press - but making it £2 per spin max with £500 top prize really keeps the slot games on them just as lethal as they are now for the desperate.

I am getting confused, how can £2 a spin be just as lethal as £100 a spin?    It is likely to take you an hour minimum to go through £100 rather than 30 seconds?   Would have to put in some serious grind to lose a weeks wages under the new rules.   If you go on tilt for five minutes, you are likely doing a tenner rather than a monkey?   If Hills and Ladbrokes do close a load of shops, there is going to be less opportunity to develop a serious gambling problem too?  





The slots have low 90% pay outs compared to 97.3% for roulette.  Therefore you are doing your cash much quicker. I would imagine the average slot player has a spin every 5? seconds compared to a roulette player who even allowing for the absolute minimum of 20 seconds realistically is taking close to a minute to place their bets every time unless just auto repeat every spin.

If they have 12 spins for every 1 spin on roulette at four times faster losing rate that's effectively 48 spins EV wise at £2 a spin with the four times faster losing rate for every one spin on roulette where they can stake £100 max.   Lot of slots players just have 'auto spin' on to play at the fastest speed possible.  Even if you wanted to repeat your bet on roulette you still have to click the repeat bet button and hit bet every time.

I would imagine the average punter irons his money out at a similar rate of knots between both products.  I have seen people iron out £100 in slots very quickly.  I still think £100 roulette punters will lose their cash quicker but very few bet £100 a spin.  The £20 roulette punter will probably lose his cash long term slower than a £2 slots player.

The post I replied to says FOBTs slots, which will have to follow the new rules?   So they have the same minimum spin time, won't they?   

This argument about very few punters betting £100 a time is a bit tiresome. It may be a small proportion of all FOBTs punters, but surely a much higher proportion of £100 a spin FOBT punters are going to have gambling problems than in the general FOBT punter population.   



The 20 second limit isn't changing as far as i am aware just the stake.  The time limits are as they were.  Slots were never subject to this 20 second time limits because effectively the slot element of the FOBT is just the same as any £500 jackpot machine in a standard high st amusement arcade which is not subject to the 20 second FOBT time limit. 
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SuperJez
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« Reply #44 on: May 18, 2018, 10:02:34 AM »

The 20 second limit isn't changing as far as i am aware just the stake.  The time limits are as they were.  Slots were never subject to this 20 second time limits because effectively the slot element of the FOBT is just the same as any £500 jackpot machine in a standard high st amusement arcade which is not subject to the 20 second FOBT time limit.  

Yep this review as far as I have read contains the following

£2 Stake cap FOBTs
Stronger Age Verification Procedures
Affordability Checks
Responsible Gambling message must now appear for the duration of TV adverts + another responsible gambling tv campaign to come
More research into the harm gambling can cause
Age of playing the National Lottery to rise from 16 to 18.

Regarding what the speed of play actually is, here's a video of a FOBT slot at £2 a go from April.



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