Leave no stone unreturned...

[MANTIS01]

They should stop folk stealing all those empty plastic bottles from the beach as well

[Jon MW]

Seems reasonable. Reading the article it seems the stones/pebbles serve a purpose.

If they put up say 300 gold bars to do the same job, would it be OK to steal them?

Seems reasonable. Where I lived until recently the council would pay for several lorry loads of pebbles every 2 or 3 years to be delivered and dumped on our beach to counteract the amount that had gone missing.

Except 99% of those missing pebbles were because of the sea.

The pebbles are almost always going to be someone's legal property - and conceptually there's little difference between taking a pebble from a beach and taking a stone from a stone wall around a field (for example); but in practice it's not really going to make any significant difference.

Why would you take a stone from a stone wall that someone has spent their time building?

Why would you take a pebble from a beach that people had spend their time building?

My point was that they were analogous.

I wouldn't. When I was young I wanted to take sand home from the beach, and my father told me it is against the law to take anything from a beach, so I don't.

But if I did, it would just be theft. You going around taking stones from people's walls is vandalism.

That's a bit extreme Mr T. What about taking a shell or an attractive pebble, seaweed to eat, a dead fish? Surely there's a common sense line to be drawn somewhere.

Well, this started with a carrier bag full of stones, not one pebble, and was before we knew that Jon is going around pulling up trees from parks but, of course, you're right. I took a photo of him drawing it. Do you take dead fish off the beach?

My point was: legally they're the same but in practice taking pebbles from the beach doesn't make a significant difference (even if it's a carrier bag full).


Although I did also think of an exception - when people take things for commercial purposes it's just taking the piss. If the council in the original story had found people were doing that then it changes the complexion entirely. That's something most seaside councils would do.

We don't know because the story lacked that kind of detail. I would also be interested in knowing how they caught these people. If they caught them red handed then wouldn't they just tell them on the spot? Otherwise does it mean they went through CCTV, tracked people back to hotels and holiday lets and used detective work to get back to their identity? I suspect there are a number of significant details missing from the story.

[RED-DOG]

Seems reasonable. Reading the article it seems the stones/pebbles serve a purpose.

If they put up say 300 gold bars to do the same job, would it be OK to steal them?

Seems reasonable. Where I lived until recently the council would pay for several lorry loads of pebbles every 2 or 3 years to be delivered and dumped on our beach to counteract the amount that had gone missing.

Except 99% of those missing pebbles were because of the sea.

The pebbles are almost always going to be someone's legal property - and conceptually there's little difference between taking a pebble from a beach and taking a stone from a stone wall around a field (for example); but in practice it's not really going to make any significant difference.

Why would you take a stone from a stone wall that someone has spent their time building?

Why would you take a pebble from a beach that people had spend their time building?

My point was that they were analogous.

I wouldn't. When I was young I wanted to take sand home from the beach, and my father told me it is against the law to take anything from a beach, so I don't.

But if I did, it would just be theft. You going around taking stones from people's walls is vandalism.

That's a bit extreme Mr T. What about taking a shell or an attractive pebble, seaweed to eat, a dead fish? Surely there's a common sense line to be drawn somewhere.

Well, this started with a carrier bag full of stones, not one pebble, and was before we knew that Jon is going around pulling up trees from parks but, of course, you're right. I took a photo of him drawing it. Do you take dead fish off the beach?

I would and have taken a dead fish off the beach. (Well actually my dog took it but I aided and abetted).

I do take your point though, and by and large I agree with you. I suppose my real issue was with viewing every law as sacrosanct. I don't do that. I look at a law and if I think it's stupid or unnecessary and I think I can ignore it without serious consequence, I do.

PS- I do so enjoy civil debate regardless of peoples viewpoint* WP all.

*May not be 100% true, some people just rip my knitting.

[tikay]

Seems reasonable. Reading the article it seems the stones/pebbles serve a purpose.

If they put up say 300 gold bars to do the same job, would it be OK to steal them?

Seems reasonable. Where I lived until recently the council would pay for several lorry loads of pebbles every 2 or 3 years to be delivered and dumped on our beach to counteract the amount that had gone missing.

Except 99% of those missing pebbles were because of the sea.

The pebbles are almost always going to be someone's legal property - and conceptually there's little difference between taking a pebble from a beach and taking a stone from a stone wall around a field (for example); but in practice it's not really going to make any significant difference.

Why would you take a stone from a stone wall that someone has spent their time building?

Why would you take a pebble from a beach that people had spend their time building?

My point was that they were analogous.

I wouldn't. When I was young I wanted to take sand home from the beach, and my father told me it is against the law to take anything from a beach, so I don't.

But if I did, it would just be theft. You going around taking stones from people's walls is vandalism.

That's a bit extreme Mr T. What about taking a shell or an attractive pebble, seaweed to eat, a dead fish? Surely there's a common sense line to be drawn somewhere.

Well, this started with a carrier bag full of stones, not one pebble, and was before we knew that Jon is going around pulling up trees from parks but, of course, you're right. I took a photo of him drawing it. Do you take dead fish off the beach?

I would and have taken a dead fish off the beach. (Well actually my dog took it but I aided and battered).

I do take your point though, and by and large I agree with you. I suppose my real issue was with viewing every law as sacrosanct. I don't do that. I look at a law and if I think it's stupid or unnecessary and I think I can ignore it without serious consequence, I do.

PS- I do so enjoy civil debate regardless of peoples viewpoint* WP all.

*May not be 100% true, some people just rip my knitting.

FYP

[tikay]

Seems reasonable. Reading the article it seems the stones/pebbles serve a purpose.

If they put up say 300 gold bars to do the same job, would it be OK to steal them?

Seems reasonable. Where I lived until recently the council would pay for several lorry loads of pebbles every 2 or 3 years to be delivered and dumped on our beach to counteract the amount that had gone missing.

Except 99% of those missing pebbles were because of the sea.

The pebbles are almost always going to be someone's legal property - and conceptually there's little difference between taking a pebble from a beach and taking a stone from a stone wall around a field (for example); but in practice it's not really going to make any significant difference.

Why would you take a stone from a stone wall that someone has spent their time building?

Why would you take a pebble from a beach that people had spend their time building?

My point was that they were analogous.

I wouldn't. When I was young I wanted to take sand home from the beach, and my father told me it is against the law to take anything from a beach, so I don't.

But if I did, it would just be theft. You going around taking stones from people's walls is vandalism.

That's a bit extreme Mr T. What about taking a shell or an attractive pebble, seaweed to eat, a dead fish? Surely there's a common sense line to be drawn somewhere.

Well, this started with a carrier bag full of stones, not one pebble, and was before we knew that Jon is going around pulling up trees from parks but, of course, you're right. I took a photo of him drawing it. Do you take dead fish off the beach?

I would and have taken a dead fish off the beach. (Well actually my dog took it but I aided and abetted).

I do take your point though, and by and large I agree with you. I suppose my real issue was with viewing every law as sacrosanct. I don't do that. I look at a law and if I think it's stupid or unnecessary and I think I can ignore it without serious consequence, I do.

PS- I do so enjoy civil debate regardless of peoples viewpoint* WP all.

*May not be 100% true, some people just rip my knitting.

Amen to that. If only everyone could debate without resorting to mocking, abuse & general bad manners. Just because we disagree on something is no reason to fall out or get arsey. *

* Except in Tom's case, as he is ridiculously stubborn.

[tikay]

Getting back to the topic, & Mr Mint said that it was theft, implying that the beach belonged to someone.

So who owns the beach? And why don't they charge rent for access?

There is a thing in law that says signs must be displayed if something is private property, failing which we have the right to access. Beaches don't display such signage, as far as I am aware?

[booder]

Do they not belong to the local authorities ?

[celtic]

Getting back to the topic, & Mr Mint said that it was theft, implying that the beach belonged to someone.

So who owns the beach? And why don't they charge rent for access?

There is a thing in law that says signs must be displayed if something is private property, failing which we have the right to access. Beaches don't display such signage, as far as I am aware?

Probably the same reason as council's don't charge for access to parks etc.

You couldn't just take a bench from a park and expect to get away with it.

[Doobs]

I thought nobody could own any of the foreshore (beach between the high and low tide marks.).   So the council may be responsible for the upkeep, but wouldn't own it either.

[tikay]

I thought nobody could own any of the foreshore (beach between the high and low tide marks.).   So the council may be responsible for the upkeep, but wouldn't own it either.

That would be my view, yes.

An analogy would be some common land - a forested area perhaps, which has wild flowers, bluebells or whatever. At some stage, all children would have picked a few wild flowers - bluebells, buttercups or whatever & taken them home. Surely that's not theft, as such?

[tikay]

Getting back to the topic, & Mr Mint said that it was theft, implying that the beach belonged to someone.

So who owns the beach? And why don't they charge rent for access?

There is a thing in law that says signs must be displayed if something is private property, failing which we have the right to access. Beaches don't display such signage, as far as I am aware?

Probably the same reason as council's don't charge for access to parks etc.

You couldn't just take a bench from a park and expect to get away with it.

A park bench costs money to buy & install, and someone - the local Council usually - would have paid for it, so no, we can't steal a park bench, that's a clear case of theft. You can't steal a fence, for the same reason, though I suppose we could sit on it.  

Nobody ever stopped us, as kids, from picking wild blackberries from a roadside verge. Is that stealing?

A pebble on a beach, or a grain of sand, or shingle, was not supplied, manufactured or installed by anyone, Nature just left it there.

It's no different, really, from fresh water, which water companies harvest & sell to us. Rainwater - which is where we get all our domestic water from -  does not belong to anyone does it? It just falls out of the sky, & folks are allowed to take it home, so to speak.

It's all very confusing, though I suppose, all things considered, of little import.

[celtic]

Getting back to the topic, & Mr Mint said that it was theft, implying that the beach belonged to someone.

So who owns the beach? And why don't they charge rent for access?

There is a thing in law that says signs must be displayed if something is private property, failing which we have the right to access. Beaches don't display such signage, as far as I am aware?

Probably the same reason as council's don't charge for access to parks etc.

You couldn't just take a bench from a park and expect to get away with it.

A park bench costs money to buy & install, and someone - the local Council usually - would have paid for it, so no, we can't steal a park bench, that's a clear case of theft. You can't steal a fence, for the same reason, though I suppose we could sit on it.  

Nobody ever stopped us, as kids, from picking wild blackberries from a roadside verge. Is that stealing?

A pebble on a beach, or a grain of sand, or shingle, was not supplied, manufactured or installed by anyone, Nature just left it there.

It's no different, really, from fresh water, which water companies harvest & sell to us. Rainwater - which is where we get all our domestic water from -  does not belong to anyone does it? It just falls out of the sky, & folks are allowed to take it home, so to speak.

It's all very confusing, though I suppose, all things considered, of little import.

It's illegal under the coastal protection act 1949. Therefore it's illegal.

Thought everyone woulda known that?

[EvilPie]

Has anybody read the article?

I was about to comment then thought I should have a gander and it all seems very clear and fine to me.

It states that Cornwall Council 'owns' 57 beaches so that clears that one up nicely.

It also states "Removing stones from public beaches is illegal under The Coastal Protection Act 1949"

So where's the problem?

They make the valid point that removing stones from the beach affects coastal erosion, natural flood defences and wildlife habitats. One obviously won't hurt but it isn't just one, it's probably thousands and would most likely be a lot more if they didn't actively discourage it.

I know it sounds petty going after someone for taking a few stones as souvenirs but if you let them get away with that what's to stop someone taking them to build a rockery in their garden? If people didn't take the piss I imagine they wouldn't mind but unfortunately at some point it's become such a problem that they've had to take drastic measures and enforce those measures.

[Jon MW]

Has anybody read the article?

I was about to comment then thought I should have a gander and it all seems very clear and fine to me.

It states that Cornwall Council 'owns' 57 beaches so that clears that one up nicely.

It also states "Removing stones from public beaches is illegal under The Coastal Protection Act 1949"

So where's the problem?

They make the valid point that removing stones from the beach affects coastal erosion, natural flood defences and wildlife habitats. One obviously won't hurt but it isn't just one, it's probably thousands and would most likely be a lot more if they didn't actively discourage it.

I know it sounds petty going after someone for taking a few stones as souvenirs but if you let them get away with that what's to stop someone taking them to build a rockery in their garden? If people didn't take the piss I imagine they wouldn't mind but unfortunately at some point it's become such a problem that they've had to take drastic measures and enforce those measures.

Building a rockery (or a drive or whatever) would count as a commercial purpose - it's what most councils would prosecute over. Some beaches with unusually aesthetic pebbles can have a problem with tourists taking too many of them as souvenirs. As I suggested above, it's not clear if either of these apply to the council in the article.

Although I did have a look and found, something like this might be how they 'catch' people taking them for commercial purposes
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2380057.m570.l1313.TR12.TRC2.A0.H0.Xcornish+pebbles.TRS0&_nkw=cornish+pebbles&_sacat=0

I suspect that very few of the "cornish pebbles" products listed on ebay have a license to have collected them from a beach (whether the beach was Cornish or not).

[Jon MW]

Beach ownership can get legally complicated.

But generally about half of it belongs to the Crown; if it's by a town it usually belongs to the town and some of it belongs to private organisations or individuals.

If it's an organisation like National Heritage then you'd barely notice; if it belongs to an individual it's much more likely to have the "Keep Out" and "Private Signs" on a fence stopping you access it.

As well as that, there are a few oddities around like some beaches are classed as Village Green's; and the Fishermen's Beach in Hastings used to belong to the Fishermen until it was controversially signed over to the council - I expect some places might still have an arrangement like that.