Party Poker ICM deal

[Doobs]

I played a $33 Party PLO8 bounty hunter game last night.

When we were 3 handed somebody suggested an ICM deal.  I was a bit sceptical as to how the prize would be split as it was a bounty hunter, but was also tired, the chip to blind ratio was high and it was my last game.  It could easily have gone on for well over an hour.

The situation was as follows.

We had near even chips, but I had slightly more chips so got the largest share (I got $208.76, 2nd got $206.07 and 3rd got $205.98).  Prizes before chop were 237.12, 236.85 and 146.84, so that bit looks fine.  When I looked at the deal screen, I don't think any split of bounties was mentioned, but might have missed it.  I don't think there deal screen is that great.  I have done a couple of previous deals and struggled with what I was supposed to do.

At the time of finishing my bounty was $139, 2nd had $126, 3rd had $252 (I don't have the amounts after the decimal points were missing from my screenshot).  I don't think the previously paid bounties should matter at all for the split of these bounties.
 
I don't profess to be an expert on how the bounties should be split on a chop, and Party has a website where I couldn't find the answer easily.  I think I should roughly expect to have got a third of the remaining amount of bounties.  ie about $173.  Party sent me £55.57 or about $77.  The total amount I got was $139.71.  So I assume that my bounty at finish was $139.71 and they have calculated the $77 by deducting my previous bounties from my bounty amount at closing. 

So their payment on an ICM chop seems to be my current bounty less any bounty payments I have previously received. 

If I played the game and knocked out 3rd I would get $126 immediately and get $126 added to my head.  If I win the whole thing that carried forward $126 is mine,  So getting about a third of the remaining bounties for the 3 people seems about what it should be (my EV from just his bounty is roughly a third of $252, ie $84) and I have some EV from my own bounty and the person in 2nd). 

So I think Party are making two mistakes. 

One.  When doing the split they are just paying me my own bounty rather than a total that is based on all 3 people remaining.
Two.  They are deducting my previous bounty payments from any total, which seems a nonsense, as the past payments shouldn't matter when dividing future bounties.

Am I right and does Party owe me roughly $100? 

[doubleup]

given the payouts, presumably the chop calc thinks that you all have an ~equal chance of finishing 1st, 2nd or 3rd?

So can't you just work out the possible perms ie you knock out A then come second or first, you knock out b and then etc, all at an equal probability?

btw I'm not sure what your bounty figures mean, I have hardly ever played them and when I did the rule was you got half the amount and the other half showed as an amount that ultimately went to the tournament winner (I think, as I obv never won).   

[Doobs]

given the payouts, presumably the chop calc thinks that you all have an ~equal chance of finishing 1st, 2nd or 3rd?

So can't you just work out the possible perms ie you knock out A then come second or first, you knock out b and then etc, all at an equal probability?

btw I'm not sure what your bounty figures mean, I have hardly ever played them and when I did the rule was you got half the amount and the other half showed as an amount that ultimately went to the tournament winner (I think, as I obv never won).  

Yep to the first paragraph.  I haven't got the chipcount info, but I don't think anyone had much more than 5% more chips than anyone else.  I could probbaly work them out backwards from the payout.

I think the 2nd paragraph is more correct than just guessing i should get about a third of it, but either way I am not going to end up down at $77 from $500+ of bounties.

Your assumption in the third paragraph is right.  I take a bounty then I get half of it, and half goes on my head.  You start with a $15 bounty.  The person who wins at the end gets their own remaining bounty and that of the person in second.  This large difference in bounty prizes is why the first and second get near identical amounts of non-bounty proze money.    

Edit.  I just reread my first post, and the 4th paragrpah is referring to non-bounty prize money.  That bit of the chop seems to be working fine.  It is the bounty part of the chop where any issues are, and that is what I am discussing from paragraph 5.

[tikay]

Doobs,

Have you checked if bounties you had taken previously have not already been paid to you?

[Doobs]

Doobs,

Have you checked if bounties you had taken previously have not already been paid to you?

The bounties are paid as you take them on Party, so I can see half of each bounty arriving in my account as I take it.  Like my first one is £5.39 which is half of $15.  You can also get half of that if you only win half the pot in split pot games (eg I have a £2.69 bounty later).

[doubleup]

ok so the bounty figures quoted are $15 plus half of everyone the player as knocked out?  So the ultimate winner will get the entire 139+126+252?

If so def something wrong

nitedit(possibly the amount less 7.50)

[Doobs]

ok so the bounty figures quoted are $15 plus half of everyone the player as knocked out?  So the ultimate winner will get the entire 139+126+252?

If so def something wrong

nitedit(possibly the amount less 7.50)

he might not get it all, as 2nd may knock out 3rd.  But bounty hunters have quite big differences between 1st and 2nd.  It is even worse on Sky, where 1st often gets double what 2nd gets (the non bounty part of the prize fund on Sky for 1st is bigger than 2nd).

[doubleup]

he might not get it all, as 2nd may knock out 3rd

but isn't that just 7.50, hence my edit?

[Doobs]

he might not get it all, as 2nd may knock out 3rd

but isn't that just 7.50, hence my edit?

No he gets half of $139, $126, or $252 depending on who he knocks out.  The other half will go to the winner overall 

[doubleup]

hmmm then I don't understand the bounty structure, as I said, I only played ones where if you knocked out someone with any amount, you only got half his initial bounty and his progressive bounty moved to you, but you only got that if you won the tournament.

[Doobs]

hmmm then I don't understand the bounty structure, as I said, I only played ones where if you knocked out someone with any amount, you only got half his initial bounty and his progressive bounty moved to you, but you only got that if you won the tournament.

I think I can do this myself, as I have become more confident that I am right over the day.  When it first happened I was expecting about a third of the remaning bounties, but wasn't at all sure if I was right.

Here is an example of a notional bounty hunter tournament on the Party netweork.

Say you have 5 players all paying £10 and a £5 bounty (assuming no site fee just for ease of maths, but you can add a quid and then immediately deduct it from the calcs if you want to be anal). 

Total prize pool is £50 of which £25 is non bounty and this part is split £15 frst and £10 second.

Assume player 4 knocks out player 5.  He gets £2.50 straight away and £2.50 is added to his bounty (now £7.50).
Player 3 knocks him out, and then he gets £3.75 and his bounty is now £8.75.  Player 4 takes his £2.50 bounty away.
Player 2 then knocks out 3 and gets £4.38 straight away and has £4.37 added to his bounty. Player 3 has taken a £3.75 bounty away.
So we get heads up with player 1 having a £5 bounty and player 2 having a £9.37 bounty. 

At this stage all the bounties can be accounted for Player 2, 3 and 4 have taken away 4.38, 3.75 and 2.50 respectively for a total of £10.63.  There is £14.37 left on the table (14.37+10.63 = £25).  Both players have even stacks and agree to an ICM chop.

If they have even stacks and chop the tournament, they should each get £12.50 from the non bounty prize and they must get the other 14.37 between them.  To get a fair split of the remaining bounties, we can see it is 50/50 who gets both bounties, as the stacks are even (winner takes all heads up), the correct split of bounties must be £7.19/7.18 and it doesn't matter who has the biggest bounty when they start heads up(god knows who gets the extra penny, but will just give it player 1 as it doesn't really matter).  So I think we can at least conclude that an even split is right when only 2 players are left.

So player 1 gets 19.69 from the chop and player 2 gets 19.68.
In addition, player 2 also gets his previous bounty win of 4.38.
player 3 gets 3.75 from his bounty win
player 4 gets 2.50 from his bounty win.

This all adds up to £50 so it must be right.

So the conclusions are. 
Previous bounties should not be taken into account from an ICM chop of bounties at the end.
In my situation each player taking an ICM chop should probably get something close to a third of the remaining bounties.
Party owes me something around $100.  In my situation I must have been due something close to a third of the remaning bounties 3 way (the remaining bounties were about $517, and I only got $77 from the bounty split part of the payment). 
Party probably owes plenty to other people that have chopped bounty hunters some money.   

Expanding this to properly calculate for 3 players is probably easy enough, but it is late and I have run bad tonight, so sleep is more appealing.  I'll probably give it a go sometime tomorrow.

 

[Doobs]

Just looking at this again this morning. 

It is clear if we have even stacks that I have a third the chance of winning my own bounty (assuming even skill).  This is because the only way I can get my bounty is by winning the whole comp.  The same must apply to the other 2 players. 

So there is a 2/3 chance of someone else getting my bounty.  There is no reason one should be more likely to win it than the other, so they must have a third of a chance each. 

This means everybody should get a third of each bounty if stacks are even.

I think it is probably safe to say that in our real situation we should get the total bounties split in line with the ICM chop, so I should get slightly more than $173. 

QED.

Now all I have to do is try and explain all this to Party.

[Pokerpops]

Just looking at this again this morning. 

It is clear if we have even stacks that I have a third the chance of winning my own bounty (assuming even skill).  This is because the only way I can get my bounty is by winning the whole comp.  The same must apply to the other 2 players. 

So there is a 2/3 chance of someone else getting my bounty.  There is no reason one should be more likely to win it than the other, so they must have a third of a chance each. 

This means everybody should get a third of each bounty if stacks are even.

I think it is probably safe to say that in our real situation we should get the total bounties split in line with the ICM chop, so I should get slightly more than $173. 

QED.

Now all I have to do is try and explain all this to Party.

 Good luck

[Marky147]

Glad I don't play poker anymore


Good luck, Doobs!

[titaniumbean]

I presume you don't know the other players to find out what they received?

does the lobby show the adjusted payouts once the tournament is finished?