Is my brain getting in the way?

[Martian Martian]

Apologies.  Here's another folded hand; is this solid play or weak play?

Again 2-table $20.  This time, I'm 2nd in chips with 2000 on a full table, blinds 30/60.

I'm UTG with  .

I call for 60.

MP (chip leader with about 2600) raises to 120. Folds back to me, I call.

Flop comes  .  Top pair, ace kicker. Rainbow flop. Life is sweet.

I raise 390. MP comes over the top with 780.

Now, two weeks ago, with a rousing cry of 'What the hell, might as well!' I would have pushed 'em all-in at this point.

Instantly. In the unshakeable belief I was ahead.

But how many times have I regretted this course of action?  Too many to mention.

Two weeks ago, I played poker exclusively using my fingers. Nowadays, I've enlisted the services of my brain.

And I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing.

So my brain says; I have no information on this guy whatsoever. Am I really ahead? Or is he outplaying me?
There are five hands that are beating me; AA KK QQ 99 66. But with such a modest
pre-flop raise, surely I can discount the first three?  Has he made a set? Does he have AQ?

A faint whiff of panic sets in when I realise I've lost faith in my top pair with ace kicker.

My brain has sown such a large seed of doubt, my instinct to re-raise has been quashed.

I use some banked time to mull things over, and eventually call.

Was this flat call a mistake?  Should I have re-raised and taken the possible consequences,
or was I justified in crapping out having only lost half my stack?

With hindsight, only a queen on the turn would have made me smile.

Turn is  .

I checked. I knew I was beaten. Whether he was beating me, I'll never know. He raised all-in and I folded.

In future, perhaps I should just leave the brain in the jar and let the fingers get on with it...

[jezza777]

This is a pretty tight fold in a $20 tourney but I think its a good one. There are not many draws he can be raising with here unless he has j10 which is unlikley. If he is a solid player then his decision to reraise an utg limper preflop and then reraise on the flop MUST be given respect. I would fully expect him to show down AA , KK or a set here. If you dont really know where you are then it is often better to fold and wait for a situation where you do know where you are before commiting your chips . A lot of internet players overvalue TPTK ans it seems that engaging your brain has saved you in this situatiion. well played.
I notice in your post that you mention the fact that he might be outplaying you. This ego at the table can be very costly , so he outplays you for a couple of hundered chips in a hand , so what? Wait and watch and get his chips when YOU make him make a big decision.
good luck

jezza

ps the call on the flop was not a good idea IMHO you need to listen to the betting and release on the flop.

[ACE2M]

check raise him on the flop to find out almost certainly where you are. unless of course his flop raise is massive, then you can worry. Personally if he overbets i'm definately moving in but sometimes i pay for this strategy.

[jezza777]

Just read my post and if it comes across as a bit patronizing I apologise it was not intended.

[Martian Martian]

Cheers Jezza, since I didn't read your post until after you'd edited it, there was no offence taken!

Ace2m, if I check and he checks, I'm no better off.  Surely a bet here is the only way to get some info?

If the situation was reversed and I was sitting with 99, I wouldn't bet in response to his check.

I would wait for the turn and hope for a raise.

Bah, where's that jar?

[Bobwah]

It's too tight for my liking. I reckon if you were put in this spot ten times you'd be ahead in at least 7 of them.

I don't think we know enough about your opponent to put him on AA or KK, you'd need a better read than the info we can get from this hand. In $20 sng's I've seen moves like that with all kinds of rubbish. I might play it a similar way if I was you opponent holding as little as 7h8h, especially if I have a stack in front of me as this player did. In tourneys aggression pays off and this hand is an example of that.

I'd say you were letting past beats cloud your judgement here. It's good to learn lessons from previous mistakes but don't become one of those bitter, twisted "I never play low pairs because I never flop a set" type-people. Stay rational.

There are ways to play that would've gained a little more info here. A min re-raise pre-flop would normally bring a giveaway all-in from any big PPs, likewise, as ACE2M says, a check-raise on the flop would be a good information getter. But you weren't to know you'd need this info later in the hand and you can't be blamed for the way you played it.

Personally, I'd have got all my chips in after he raised pre-flop. If he has the best of me well good for him, he should be raising his big PPs more than that pre-flop or he's going to get hurt. If I win the hand, which I think you would have, then I'm going to finish in the top two, and that's where most of the money is.



 

[Martian Martian]

Thanks for your thoughts Bob. Reading between the lines, you think my brain got in the way of my balls? 

The reason I limped UTG is I don't think AQo is deserving of an early raise on a table of ten given my healthy chip position.

This is quite early on in the tournament, only level 2, so why take on the only player who is already running
the taps in readiness for my early bath? Strategically that doesn't make sense, regardless of whether he has the goods or not.

Me become bitter and twisted? Absolutely - speak to the wife!  But I will always play low pairs.

Anyway, the flat call post-flop was a bad decision. I should've folded.

Sack-cloth and ashes for me this weekend...

[ACE2M]

Thanks for your thoughts Bob. Reading between the lines, you think my brain got in the way of my balls? 

The reason I limped UTG is I don't think AQo is deserving of an early raise on a table of ten given my healthy chip position.

This is quite early on in the tournament, only level 2, so why take on the only player who is already running
the taps in readiness for my early bath? Strategically that doesn't make sense, regardless of whether he has the goods or not.

Me become bitter and twisted? Absolutely - speak to the wife!  But I will always play low pairs.

Anyway, the flat call post-flop was a bad decision. I should've folded.

Sack-cloth and ashes for me this weekend...

I disagree with your limp with AQ for a lot of reasons but if it works for you then thats what you should do.

[12barblues]

Obligatory (but not very illuminating) hand analysis:

Calling the flop raise with the intention of folding the turn unless you hit your 2 outer is the worst of the 3 choices.

Now....you are worried about misplaying AQ?  Pah!  This is how to misplay AQ; no danger of 'brain getting in the way' here. 

They say that confession is good for the soul.  On that basis, I am clearly destined for nirvana.

The situation:

Towards the end of the first level of a little STT;
EP guy has already busted 2 people with rags and has a 3 x starting stack;
MP guy hasn't played a hand;
12bar is in LP and hasn't played a hand.

EP limps
MP calls
12bar has AQ and raises to 4 or 5 x BB

EP calls - this means he has.....well......any 2 cards really

MP calls

Flop Q52 rainbow - nice.  Should make a few chips here.

EP pushes allin - who does he think he's kidding?  Does he think a 49.7% ROI player like me (see below) can be bullied like this?   

MP thinks until he is almost out of time, then calls all in.

A millisecond, and a twitch of the forefinger, later 12bar calls all in.

Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhhh!  What have I done?? 

Showdown!

I look across to MP.  He has AQ.  Phew!  Got away with it.  Split pot.

Wtf???  All the chips are shovelled to EP guy.  He has 55 for the set.

Exit 12bar stage left, muttering 'I may be gone some time......'

OK, I got busted by the 'wrong' guy, but this was an inexcusably, pathetically awful call.  Words cannot express just how badly I feel about this hand.

Is there a 'shoots self in foot' smilie?

Form an orderly queue for your  and smilies.  Demand may well be at an all time high.

Serious point:  Never draw conclusions as to whether you are a winning player (let alone obviously unsustainable winning rates like the 49% quoted above) based on pathetically inadequate sample sizes. 

As an example, I saw a discussion elsewhere where a guy who supposedly murders $1,000 SNG's played 100 $10 SNG's  apparently expecting to make 75% ROI to prove it is possible.  His result was......wait for it........negative ROI.  One of the best in the world lost money in the short run even at this level.

Your shamefaced correspondent,

12bar

P.S.  If I had a shred of decency, I would never post on this board again.  Fortunately (for me) and unfortunately (for you), I have no sense of shame.  You have been warned 








 

[SupaMonkey]

Love the post 12bar.

Martian, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the fact he min raised you twice. Post flop i would say that is either TPTK (depending on the board), two pair or a set. However, because he min raised you preflop and then again on the flop, i'm convinced that he has either A-A or K-K.

[AndrewT]

As an example, I saw a discussion elsewhere where a guy who supposedly murders $1,000 SNG's played 100 $10 SNG's  apparently expecting to make 75% ROI to prove it is possible.  His result was......wait for it........negative ROI.  One of the best in the world lost money in the short run even at this level.

It's probably not so much variance as wrong style of play. Someone who has been playing $1,000 SnGs who then plays $10 ones is going to bluff his chips away. When people call you down with anything, best hand wins - just because you're a winning player at $1,000 games doesn't mean you're going to get dealt better cards than your opponents.

[thetank]

Pre-flop, If you don't want to raise with it, fold it. Especially when it comes to AQ, AJ.

As far as betting for information goes, if you raise to 180 say and get re-raised, there's all you need to know and you can get away pre-flop.

Folding AQ UTG when the blinds are small in a STT is not a bad play at all.