Pointless weak river bets.

[thetank]

Don't you just love them. Heres a hand I played on the bubble against a guy who must have thought it rude to use his stack.



Table '22696692 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 5: jimfire1951 (920 in chips)
Seat 6: tigmong (2680 in chips)
Seat 7: moon-dog41 (8310 in chips)
Seat 9: Mackas (1590 in chips)
jimfire1951: posts the ante 25
tigmong: posts the ante 25
moon-dog41: posts the ante 25
Mackas: posts the ante 25
tigmong: posts small blind 100
moon-dog41: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tigmong [ ]
Mackas: folds
jimfire1951: folds
tigmong: calls 100
moon-dog41: checks
*** FLOP *** [ ]
tigmong: checks
moon-dog41: checks
*** TURN *** [ ]

tigmong: checks moon-dog41: checks *** RIVER *** [ ] [] tigmong: checks moon-dog41: bets 200 tigmong: calls 200 *** SHOW DOWN *** moon-dog41: shows [ ] (two pair, Jacks and Deuces) tigmong: shows [ ] (two pair, Jacks and Sevens) tigmong collected 900 from pot Can we have a worst value bet of the week competiton? This is my entry. If the bet was bigger, it would have been an ok move. But 200? Ace high will probably pass in this spot. A pair of deuces or better will likely look him up. His kicker ain't beating much.

[thetank]

Just pre-empting potential criticism here.

I played the hand passively, thats because the chap I was playing against was a super obvious calling station with a stack on the bubble (I've never seen him bluff). As vulnerable as my holding is, and as likely as it is to be ahead, this is not the time to play big pots.

Against some in this spot, I'd fold pre-flop. No point in donating 100 chips to someone who knows how to use their chip lead on the bubble.

Against others, I'd definately put in a flop bet.

[clayftknight]

Welll, it was a very gay bet on the river I agree.

How did he get those chips?  i'm confused, he has a huge lead, 4 left, the guy in 2nd (you) limps and he doesn't bet?!

I know exactly why you played it like you did, in your position you don't want to mess with CL, you knew that, seems he didn't

[dan]

Can we have a worst value bet of the week competiton? This is my entry.

here is my entry

------HAND 79------
Game #1954774844: Hold'em NL (15/30) - 2006/04/08 - 13:05:10 (UK)
Table "SixPak30 2328493 - 1" Seat 3 is the button.
Seat 1: Fluming (730 in chips)
Seat 2: RLB2005 (2542 in chips)
Seat 3: Blake005 (1187.50 in chips)
Seat 4: pay-day (690 in chips)
Seat 5: Iacov2206 (850.50 in chips)
pay-day: posts small blind 15
Iacov2206: posts big blind 30
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to Blake005 [ Ah]
Fluming: folds
RLB2005: folds
Blake005: raises to 120
pay-day: calls 105
Iacov2206: folds
----- FLOP ----- [ ]
pay-day: checks
Blake005: checks
----- TURN ----- [ ][]
pay-day: checks
Blake005: checks
----- RIVER ----- [ ][]
pay-day: bets 30
Blake005: calls 30
----- SHOW DOWN -----
pay-day: shows [ ] (High Card Ace)
Blake005: shows [ Ah] (High Card Ace)
Blake005 collects 330 from Main pot
----- SUMMARY -----
Total pot 330 Main pot 330 Rake 0
Board [ ]
Seat 1: Fluming folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: RLB2005 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Blake005 (button) showed [ Ah] and won (330) with High Card Ace
Seat 4: pay-day (small blind) showed [ ] and lost
Seat 5: Iacov2206 (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

i called the 30 on the end just for information to see what he had called out of the blinds with.

once he checked the turn to me a thought about taking a stab at it but thought i might get called by all sorts of drawing hands and wouldnt know where i was and didnt want to bluff more chips off on the river

[KeithyB]

Hi Tank,

I’m looking to improve my game ( aren’t we all! ) and would welcome a little more input on what Moondog should have done on the river?  I do very well at small $5 $10 STT but obviously you are successful at larger buy-in ones and if I’m ever going to progress I need to understand a little more here.

I’ll be perfectly honest and say that I’m probably making the same sort of bet as Moondog on the river here and don’t understand why is this such a poor bet? Here’s my reasoning……..

Maybe he thinks his  could be good due to the lack of action in the hand all the way through. If he checks again won’t you raise it up? ( and by more than 200 too! ) which means it’ll cost Moon more to find out.  Any bet by you would presumably result in a (correct) fold by Moon who would then be left with the nagging doubt he may have been bluffed.

I’m happy here spending 200 on river… (but only 200 ) to find out if my hand is good.  I’m folding to any reraise though!  I don’t want to bet more in case you have  or any or the other numerous possibilties that beat me!

Isn’t he just placing a “limit” bet which could also look like a trap indicating he has a  and wants a reraise?
Doesn’t the fact you didn’t re-raise mean his value bet has in fact worked?

End result is that CL has to be happy with the outcome as he’s discovered whether his two’s were beaten as cheaply as possible. This means there’s little or no impact on his overall strong position in the tourney.

Thanks Keith

[KeithyB]

Another interesting point raised earlier implies that Moon shouldn’t have let Tank just limp in.  I know you good players like to bully from CL position but isn’t it pushing things a bit to go mad with in this situation?  Why risk anything against 2nd at this stage when the other two are so weak?

[Bongo]

I’m happy here spending 200 on river… (but only 200 ) to find out if my hand is good.  I’m folding to any reraise though!  I don’t want to bet more in case you have  or any or the other numerous possibilties that beat me!

He could check and close the action and find out if his hand is good for free.
By betting he has just given 200 chips to a hand that beats him (and opened himself up to being bluffed by reopening the betting).

[thetank]

Bongo sums it up. If his 2's are good, he can see so for free by checking the river.

There is no point in mini-betting a small amount in that spot as any hand that can call, can also win.

A larger bet would be ok, the other player might fold a better hand.


With his stack, the hand should not have gone to the river. Never mind that it is only deuce-trey, cards don't matter when you're chipped up on the bubble.

If he raises or bets at any point before the river, I can't call. 2nd in chips and nothing for 4th place. It's correct to avoid the chip leader, sometimes you need to let hom slap you around a bit.

A good chip leader knows this and will pick on chip runner-up till the cows come home.

[clayftknight]

And that advice from tank is worth gold.

with a table of 4 very strong players, the CL will bully the guy in 2nd and the guy in 2nd will keep well out of the way.

It depends on the stack sizes and the blinds but in the example here, this is the situation.

[TightEnd]

I have been bullied by the tank around the bubble of a semi serious live comp


deeply unpleasant, he is rather good at it.

[KeithyB]

Bongo sums it up. If his 2's are good, he can see so for free by checking the river.

  Tank's reply there.

Many thanks for all the input guys.   Looking back now my whole river bet argument was based around the fact I'd incorrectly read it as Moondog acting first with his 200 bet rather than him having had the chance to check it down for free. Apologies for that!   

Having now realised that....yep....it was a pointless bet.....and it gets my vote!!   

[KeithyB]

And that advice from tank is worth gold.

with a table of 4 very strong players, the CL will bully the guy in 2nd and the guy in 2nd will keep well out of the way.

It depends on the stack sizes and the blinds but in the example here, this is the situation.

Thanks for that both, great advice and something I'll try to use more.  My normal tactic when CL in this position would be to try and bully the two short stacks rather than the guy in second for fear of him getting closer to me. But I can see now that the second place with these kind of stacks will be even more in fear of bubbling from his current second place than to risk tangling with CL.



I love this forum! 

[clayftknight]

exactly, 4 left, blinds of 200/400,  the short stack on 900 chips is ready to gamble, the guy on 2500 is waiting for the 900 guy to double or bust