Acceptable play or not ?

[Pontecarlo]

i`ll set the scene
playing live down to last 16 with only F/table paid , i have about 12k probaly a bit below average
i am BB and get KQs , first to act is seriously short stacked , BB is 1200 and he only has 1600 so goes all in , all fold to SB who has about 16K in chips - he calls the extra 1K and i call the extra 400
flop is As - SB checks so do I , turn is , sb checks again so i know he hasnt the ace and i bet 3K into a dead pot , he immediatley folds , UTG shows AK and takes the main pot and my bets returned - Cue a lot of angry looks and head shaking , it was pointed out that i should have just checked it down and what i did is a total no no , being new ish to live games and never had this situation i just apologised - at the break i found the SB and again apologised personally , citing my inexperience , to be fair he said OK no probs , its very bad ettiquette and not to do it again

the reason i did it was that the main pot is 4.8K which represent almost half my stack , i realised that if i was called then i had probably thrown away 3k but did feel that i was in front or at least representing the ace. my thinking was that if i check again and the sb hits a pair then i have lost a good pot - if i can get him out then my king may be good enough to beat the short stack anyway

so opinions please - is this really that bad , have i broken an unwritten rule or is it a local thing, i arent on about the stupidity aspect of only getting a caller if i was behind - i fully realised that and was prepared to take the risk , rightly or wrongly

i would especially appreciate the opinions of regular live players, what is the opinion of the higher echelon player - on the "ruling " not my risk


 
 
 
 

[Ironside]

oh the dry pot rule

there is no dry pot rule

but you have to think whats the best for you
at that stage of the tourny it was best for both you and the sb to check it down
hoping one of you can knock out the short stacked player and therefore progress closer to the money
if i had been the sb and you had bet into the dry pot you give me a chance to make a play and i could have come over
the top of you with nothing (really hard to call a reraise over a an all in player)

[tikay]

Well that's maybe so, but I think the question refers specifically to "etiquette". Listen ponte.....

There is NO SUCH ETIQUETTE.

It's YOUR MONEY, & YOUR CHIPS. Do with it WHATEVER YOU WISH.

The "advice" you got was from self-interested parties. "Help knock that guy out & we will all be better off".

Well sod that - do whatever you want. I repeat, it's YOUR money, & YOUR chips. So here's the deal. You don't tell them how to play, they don't tell you how to play. Now THATS etiquette.

Stand stong fella. I have no opinion on the play you made - it's not relevant to the question. Don't let these bully boys shove you around, do your own thing. If you think you can gain more chips by betting into a dry pot, bet into it.

There's a guy from Derby who criticises every play everyone makes. Frankly, I could smack him - it's bang out of order.

Now you've got my gander up. Grrrrr

[Longy]

I have very similar story from Monday night at Nottingham. I am extrmely shorstacked in BB with the blinds at 300/600 3 ppl call my blind and i throw the 500 i have left in blind and all 3 call. Flop comes 5 3 2 rainbow checked all round. Turnn comes a 2 checked by ep player and then a face i didn't recognise bet the pot 4400. I think bugger he has the 2. Both others fold. I look at my card and find 9 3 a pair of 3's. Stand up look for the door. He then turns over kj. River is a blank i scoop the pot with a confused look. Cue a riot (well sort of) criticising the play. Turns out the SB had k3 and folded (it was big bob) he looks crestfallen.

I didn't really help the situation by thanking the player and grinning but hey i couldn't believe my luck. In my opinion it was awful play and would have been annoyed if i had been Bob. Its not etiquette as such more common sense. You have nothing to gain and may well allow an all in player off. Your situation wasn't as bad as your sb didn't have anything that could beat ak did he?

[RED-DOG]

Now you've got my gander up. Grrrrr

Shh, tikays goose is sleeping

[tikay]

But, with respect (which sometimes means exactly the opposite, but I mean it) this is what Ponte was told. (Wish I knew how to work that quote thing).

"should of checked it down".

"It's a no-no".

"Dont do it again". (Which is the point at which I explode). YOU are telling ME not to do it again? You jest Sir. Remind me exactly what it's got to do with YOU what I do with my chips or money.

They are ALL WRONG.

Ponte can play HIS chips how HE wants. If he loses the lot, or fails to give the optimum advantage to the other players, then tough. They did not pay his entry fee did they?

[Ironside]

ettiquette wise i agree pontecarlo can do anything he wants,
it the hand discribed what he did was a poker mistake

sometimes it worth bluffing into dry pots if you have a large stack and the short stacks are all trying to limp into the money

you can bully with free reign and therefore worth keeping in the shoirt stacked player without giving another stack a chance to gain chips by hitting a free card, keep em all small and scared

[Pontecarlo]

longy - no he didnt have a hand as it happens , reading your example you said it was awful play but for example if you hadnt hit the 3`s and had k10 , the overbet would then have taken the pot , where-as if he had merely checked then bob takes it -
i arent saying for one minute its good or bad play , as tikay points out that isnt the question i was only setting the scene , it was meant as an ettiquette one and others peoples understanding and interpretation of it , i am sure it will happen again sometime to me and wonder what i will do then , i dont know as yet
to me i think its a legitimate tactic , but being new i am asking opinion of others , when i am playing i want all the chips and will use any legitimate method to get them - i am finding it slightly ironic at the outrage of the players at the table when one of the mainstays of our game is lying(bluffing) and that is congratulated as good play

[stewart]

the way i look at this is :
i dont care where we are in the tournyment, 100left 11 left i play my hand to the MAX, 
i also allways if i am going to call a SS re-raise to get it heads-up i dont want the blinds limping in and out-floping me,

such a thing as bad ettiquite (excuse the spelling) ?, i doubt it very much we all have diffrent views on thease things,

the only time i would never bet into a pot is your situation, what did you have? you are only betting to lose, he could well hold the A and be checking it threw to knock the guy out, the only way u can win is by a K high being good, ? the least a SS is going to move in with is an A or any pair, now if there was say a 800 side pot then it is completly diffrent you have a gain to your bet at least if u win that pot u get something back,   

[tikay]

For the avoidance of doubt, there seems to be two questions being answered here. Did he play the hand right or wrong? No idea, and I am not going to comment.

my comments relate to the question of Etiquette ONLY.

[Pontecarlo]

cheers tikay - that is the question i was putting - really the right and wrongs of betting or all ins etc is irrelevant , the bet was made purely to get the SB out and increase my chance os beating the all in i am leaning to the "sod it there are chips there and i want em" way of thinking and if it ruffles a few feathers then so be it - i just needed assurance it isnt a sort of nationwide unwritten rule that would leave me as unpopular as a fart in a spacesuit when breaking it
incidently , tikay can you recall it happening in any pro tourneys with big names - if so what was the reaction

[tikay]

There is no rule - written or unwritten - nor any etiquette - which says you should not or must not do what you did. There IS an etiquette that you don't criticise the play of other folks at the table. So Matey Boy was bang out of order himself, before he starts telling you what you can & cant do.

Does it happen with "big names"? No. With respect, it only happened to you because they sussed you were a relative newbie, & that's what annoys me so about it. "Big Names" would know they can do as they want, unlike your hapless "pal". And they would certainly never, never ever, criticise the play of others in front of the table.

[Longy]

As tikay states there are two issues. I would like to say that i don't trash talk at the table and don't tell other people how to play unless they ask my opinion. My story really is to illustrate why doing that would be a bad idea and in my opinion is a losing play in the long term. In actual fact thinking on my feet here, i suppose there would be an arguement of trying to keep a super weak player in. As he is likely to donate his chips to you, if you know how to exploit his weakness.

[Phil]

Betting into an empty side pot is definitely NOT bad etiquette.

However, bluffing into isn't very beneficial or that sensible given the fact that many people will check down the pot with a player all in. Your opponent may well have had a weak ace and was happy to check it down to eliminate a player, preferably with his own hand, but if not with yours. If he has any piece of that flop he will almost certainly call.

Obviously if you hit two pair, you need to bet that empty side pot to protect your hand.

It's not bad etiquette, but at the same point I don't really see the merit in the bet you actually made.

[tikay]

Maybe. But Matey Boy had no right to tell ponte "don't do that again". Because it's none of his damn business how Ponte plays.