Playing Kings

[lazaroonie]

Blinds 1K/2K. Under the Gun, 8 handed table. You have average chips around 40K, and we are fast approaching the bubble and the final table.

You find KK. What do you do

[ACE2M]

i clicked raise more but it depends on the make up of the table, i don't want to play the pot out of position to big stacks on an Ace high board or dangerous board. So i am looking not to let anyone see the flop cheaply with A10, AJ, QJ etc

[lazaroonie]

ok, the biggest stack at the table is about 60K - so no massive chip stacks.

Nobody has been particularly aggressive pre-flop at this table.

[Sunday8pm]

Id be raising 3 x bb

but i raise a very wide range of hands from very wide positions so id almost certainly get action.

if your not the kind of player that raises Q6o UTG then id prob limp/re raise

[thetank]

I hate the limp/re-raise with KK UTG near the bubble.

Too high a standard deviation for me at that point in the tourney. That and I'm not the greatest at laying KK down post-flop when the limp/re-raise turns into just a limp/limp. I'll be raising a decent amount every time. (Unless I feel theres a lot of people who've read this thread at the table)

[Highstack]

Too big a hand to waste so I don't like playing them fast even at the bubble. I don't understand why someone doesn't want hands like AK AQ AJ AT to call here. I am putting a raise in but probably only making it 5-6k total. I want action and I can play the flop. I am not limping 8 handed in case I don't get a raise behind me.

Players will lower their requirements 8 handed to call my initial raise. 10 handed I may limp and pray for a raise round the back, then reraise. If I don't get the required raise proceed with caution post flop like any other pair if I don't hit a set and there are a few involved.

[ACE2M]

Too big a hand to waste so I don't like playing them fast even at the bubble. I don't understand why someone doesn't want hands like AK AQ AJ AT to call here. I am putting a raise in but probably only making it 5-6k total. I want action and I can play the flop. I am not limping 8 handed in case I don't get a raise behind me.

Players will lower their requirements 8 handed to call my initial raise. 10 handed I may limp and pray for a raise round the back, then reraise. If I don't get the required raise proceed with caution post flop like any other pair if I don't hit a set and there are a few involved.

It's not that i don't want them to call, i just want it to be a mistake for them to do so. I want a pot big enough for them to make a big mistake with a poor holding. If i am in the bb with 10 J suited i consider it to be a correct call to make up the 3k/4k, if i am on the button holding A10/KQ/AJ/AQ suited etc i consider it to be correct to make the call. Suddenly my small raise with KK gets me into a four way pot, out of postion to two players and it can get ugly.

[Highstack]

You are looking at worst case scenario to expect the button in with AQ and the bb has JTs and a.n.other that all four are in.

I don't mind pricing you in for 6k on the button with your Ax v my KK. I have put a raise to remove the rags and I have an idea that you have some kind of a hand. I may go broke if you are already holding AA or if you hold a lower pp and flop a set and I don't, but we will worry about that post flop, because I am pumping on any flop without no ace, which will be more often than not and when an ace does flop I can slow down without doing too much damage. Remember you have position over the bb that may in your example smooth call. Whilst the ranges of both bb and button may vary, you do want action from a big hand like this. You can't afford to waste it.

[ACE2M]

I am absolutely happy to pick up the blinds here.
The range of hands that can call is very wide to a small raise and as you say you are going to get to work on a flop without an ace with no intention of backing down. I think this is just to dangerous of a tactic but i am a bit of a survivalist in mtts rather than an active chip gatherer. I know my example of hands was a bit worst case but it is a very real consideration.

Things i see going wrong are playing a pot out of postion to a large stack or multiple stacks, If people pick up big draws they are inclined to re raise or check raise your flop bet and price themselves into their draw. Someone can make a better hand on the flop without an ace which busts you also. An ace falls and your hands is dead to a raise unless you have a very good handle on the oppos game.

With KK i absolutely want to play the pot HU. A largeish raise from utg looks like a weaker holding that does not want to play a flop to most people which encourages the medium pp's and the AQ's, AK's to push pre flop and get you into the ideal situation.

As ever there is no right or wrong just personal preference to how you play a situation but i have busted so many people playing KK softly and been on the receiving end many times as well.

[thetank]

 

With KK i absolutely want to play the pot HU. A largeish raise from utg looks like a weaker holding that does not want to play a flop to most people which encourages the medium pp's and the AQ's, AK's to push pre flop and get you into the ideal situation.

I always prefer it when K2o decides to get busy. 

[Dewi_cool]

Id be raising 3 x bb

but i raise a very wide range of hands from very wide positions so id almost certainly get action.

if your not the kind of player that raises Q6o UTG then id prob limp/re raise

 

[ACE2M]

Id be raising 3 x bb

but i raise a very wide range of hands from very wide positions so id almost certainly get action.

if your not the kind of player that raises Q6o UTG then id prob limp/re raise

 

personally i think it is absolute folly to limp/re raise KK. I never do it (apart from shorthanded or heads up).

[ACE2M]

Id be raising 3 x bb

but i raise a very wide range of hands from very wide positions so id almost certainly get action.

if your not the kind of player that raises Q6o UTG then id prob limp/re raise

 

personally i think it is absolute folly to limp/re raise KK. I never do it (apart from shorthanded or heads up).

Just to clarify the limp/re raise move is great when it works but the potential for it to go wrong is to great for me stomach.

[Highstack]

Id be raising 3 x bb

but i raise a very wide range of hands from very wide positions so id almost certainly get action.

if your not the kind of player that raises Q6o UTG then id prob limp/re raise

 

personally i think it is absolute folly to limp/re raise KK. I never do it (apart from shorthanded or heads up).

Just to clarify the limp/re raise move is great when it works but the potential for it to go wrong is to great for me stomach.

I totally agree here, the reason for that is taht players limp then when the raise doesn't come they still proceed like KK is a monster post flop in a multiway hand. If you don't get the option to put in a preflop reraise, then you must treat KK like any other pp post flop unless you hit your set. That is to proceed with caution and keep the pot small. Your overpair to the flop may still be good enough, but no excuses for now going broke here.

[doubleup]

If I limped there would have to be a very high chance that someone would raise behind me.  This would usually only be the case if I had been limping and folding to previous raises and at least a couple of people acting behind me were very aggressive.

The problem with a standard raise is that if you are called you pretty much have to continue on any flop, so you're committing a third of your stack before you start playing poker. It's worth asking what hands you are going to stack off here on an aceless flop.

Allin appears to be a bit of a waste, so I would prefer a large raise something like 5/6bbs. I dont think that AK/Q will like calling this bet and if they play will go allin.  QQ JJ TT 99 might call and be pot commited on an aceless flop.  So that would be my preferred option.