My turn

[snoopy1239]

Any chance I could grab some analysis from all you poker pros out there?

Cash game - 8 handed.

dealt AcJc in mid pos.

guy two seats be4 me flat calls.

I raise it up to 4x blinds.

All fold. EP calls.

Flop = KcKs4c

He bets pot. I call.

Turn =

He bets around half the pot. I call.

River = As

He bets the pot. After mulling it over for a bit, I call.

He shows AK - his full house beats my flush.

My bro thinks I played it badly. I agree.

A penny for your thoughts. 

[Ironside]

i dont like drawing for a flush on a paired board

[TightEnd]

fair enough Ironside, but he was drawing to the nut flush and how do you put EP on AK given the way the pre flop betting went?

I suppose with hindsight you raise the backside off the turn and take the pot there and then

[Scottish Dave]

i agree ironside, but when the 5 c came on the Turn to make the Nut Flush, and EP only bet half the pot, i would have raised the max amount possible, as a half decent player would have assumed yoiu hit the flush, giving him only river to hit a K, A or board to pair, depends how pot commited EP was, by the sounds of it, he probably would have called anyway, losing you more money, but only you could have judged the opposition.

[Ironside]

once you make the flush its hard to get away from

but its still drawing to a 30% chance with a paird board that could already have your flush beat (44 for example)

if you have the person on a bluff then you can raise your flush draw on the flop

[snoopy1239]

fair enough Ironside, but he was drawing to the nut flush and how do you put EP on AK there? I suppose the half pot bet is the giveaway that he has a good one.


I suppose with hindsight you raise the backside off the turn and take the pot there and then

When he bet half the pot, I put him on the king. I felt he was nervous about the flush and wanted to get a feel of where he was.

I flatcalled because I put him on the king and therefore deduced that he only had 10 cards to draw to. (if that's right  )  Also, I didn't want to scare him away from putting any more money in.

However, I believe I should have reraised the turn and made him pay to try and hit the full house.

[snoopy1239]

once you make the flush its hard to get away from

but its still drawing to a 30% chance with a paird board that could already have your flush beat (44 for example)

if you have the person on a bluff then you can raise your flush draw on the flop

I didn't put him on a stronger hand the trips. I thought that he'd trapcheck or . I certainly didn't put him on an ace kicker. I had him down for KQ, which is why I called on the river. I'm not sure if he would have folded to a reraise on the turn. I should have asked him. 

[Scottish Dave]

fair enough Ironside, but he was drawing to the nut flush and how do you put EP on AK there? I suppose the half pot bet is the giveaway that he has a good one.


I suppose with hindsight you raise the backside off the turn and take the pot there and then

However, I believe I should have reraised the turn and made him pay to try and hit the full house.

this is exactly correct, at no point after the flop, did you give him a decition to make.

thats basically all the constructive critisizm i have to offer

[snoopy1239]

fair enough Ironside, but he was drawing to the nut flush and how do you put EP on AK there? I suppose the half pot bet is the giveaway that he has a good one.


I suppose with hindsight you raise the backside off the turn and take the pot there and then

However, I believe I should have reraised the turn and made him pay to try and hit the full house.

this is exactly correct, at no point after the flop, did you give him a decition to make.

thats basically all the constructive critisizm i have to offer

Is there an argument to say that if I think he is definitely going to call a raise on the turn, I should call, so as to minimise losses if he does hit that kicker?

[thediceman]

First mistake is your pot call on the flop. It's fair to assume you are behind at this stage and you are only approx 33% to hit your nut flush. OK it could be argued you was just about getting pot odds to call but it as it has been mentioned drawing for a flush with a pair on the board you are possibly running into a full house. He could have easily been playing 44 or 55.

Having called him and not putting on either 44 or 55 it is reasonable to assume he has a K or pocket pair, both of which give him outs. Your second mistake having called on the flop was to flat call on the turn. If you had put him on either a K or PP you are well ahead (approx 80/20) so should be looking to end the pot there and put in a big reraise and make him pay for his draw.

[TightEnd]

if you fully raise the turn, he has to know you have the flush

He then has four outs (the case King and three Aces) to beat you which is more than a 10-1 shot. He doesn't have those pot odds.

He should fold

whether he will or not I don't know but if he calls a big raise and hits he is rewarded for bad play...over the long run it would cost him money (cold comfort to you) and you would be +EV by raising turn here.

[Ironside]

he also has 3 and 3 giving him 10 outs

[thediceman]

Is there an argument to say that if I think he is definitely going to call a raise on the turn, I should call, so as to minimise losses if he does hit that kicker?

YES, but I would prefer to to still put in a big reraise as you are going to win 80% of the time. So you might take a bad beat but in the longterm these are profitable situations and you should try to take advantage as and when you can.

[TightEnd]

you're right (I need to open up another window to check the facts on the original thread whilst I'm replying)

He's a 4 and a bit to 1 shot to hit his house

make him pay the maximum if he fancies hitting it

Diceman in the post above has it spot on

[Junior Senior]

in short and without the math, i would say that you drawing to a flush (albeit the nuts flush) is a highly dangerous play on a paired board.  You have to think what the EP limper could have - and although the majority of the time the nut flush will be the winning hand, it is still very dangerous to draw to your flush on a paired board.