KK utg again

[doubleup]

The hand I went out on in Blackpool was a bit of a beat, but although I got my chips in while well ahead I think I misplayed the hand.

I picked up KK utg with about 90k in chips and made it 12k to go (3bbs).  The button was the only caller.   The flop came down 567 rainbow and I bet 25k.

In hindsight I think I should have pushed on this flop. 

My main reasoning for this is that the highly co-ordinated flop gives my opponent a huge opportunity to bluff me on the turn if a 3 4 8 or 9 hits.

The other consideration is when I have AK and also push it is a very hard bet for an opponent to call with a hand like TT or JJ.

Any thoughts?

[Royal Flush]

i like the bet, it gives your oppo a chance to bluff.

[M3boy]

Ditto

[doubleup]

I know *this* hand worked well, but I should be playing a range of hands consistently.  How would you play AK? The same way?

[totalise]

I know *this* hand worked well, but I should be playing a range of hands consistently.  How would you play AK? The same way?

what other way is there? it seems like the pot is 30k (12k*2 plus the blinds) and you have 78k behind.  I think that betting around the size of the pot is pretty standard for whatever holding you have here.. its not like you are just going to hoof it in if you have AK rite? Remember that playing a range is two way as well, you are likely to have a tight range being UTG, so if he is considering making a move on you, he will be making a move on your range. most people always assume/or HOPE that raisers have AK, so its likely best to bet your range weaker then stronger, because you will have pairs about as often often as AK (ie QQ---AA is 18 ways, and AK is 16 ways.. this is probably too tight, but its good enough to prove a point) so trying to encourage people to make a move on you is quite likely more appealing then the other option, which is to grossly overbet the pot and not get action when you are ahead.

People like to steal pots, and overbetting restricts their ability to do this. Of course it depends on the range you are representing, but poker is always a battle of risk vs reward, and the more you bet, its usually the case that you are risking too much to be rewarded with too little, with the added caveat that if you bet weakish, then you then give your opponents a chance to risk a lot to win whatever is in the pot. The times you dont like the flop, you lose a c/bet, and the times you like it, you give them a chance to give you their stack***


It also allows you to exploit the gap concept by raising much wider ranges UTG on the assumption that people respect the gap concept, and wont play with you aggressively, so you can raise marginal hands like 10/J or 78 suited, and then either hit the flop and hope to win a big hand, or watch the flop come paint and then your c/bet takes it down anyways.. then you are stealing the pots for a cheaper price then if you routinely overbet the pot on the flop regardless of your holding. This probably isn't so prevalent with these specific chip stacks/blind levels, but when the stacks are slightly deeper, its certainly a play that holds value, and so not overbetting flops as a general rule gives you coverage for this play earlier on.

***The underlying importance though is always opponent tendancies. If someone is known for making bad calls on draws, then you overbet when you have made hands, and if someone is known for bluffing scary flops, you underbet them.. this holds greater importance then game theoretical issues about playing style parity... and its one of the functions of live play that you dont really get online

I will apologise in advance if some of this is slightly garbled, I just woke up and proof reading it is too difficult

[Lee]

Your optimum play here depends on your table really, but i will throw a few ideas into the pot. Firstly, my assumptions are based on what would normally happen, there are always exceptions.

An UTG raise usually signals a big hand. At the stage you are at in the torny, it's important to maximise your winnings with this hand, however, I would also be interested in taking a nice pot down pre-flop and staying out of possible trouble. To make any chips on this hand, you either have to make the raise small enough for people to call and take a chance or raise an amount whereby you will only get called by good starting hands. Because of this i much prefer the limp personally, if someone has a hand then they will be raising anyway and you can go over the top and take uncontested pot, if they don't then your bet would not get called.

I have no problem with your post-flop raise, i am interested in what you would do if your opponent called or re-raised all in though. If he reraises all in, then i call instantly, if he just calls then the turn is going to be one scarey card for me. Your first to act on the turn if he calls your flop bet, what do you do? pot is now 80k.

I think KK is a hard hand to play whilst also maximising your win and minimising your risk. Its such a nice hand, but we've all slumped with disappointment when the obligatory Ace hits the flop. Some info on your caller is also nice, has he been calling small PP's in this position, suited connectors or is he likely to have AK AQ etc. We have these 3 groupings on possible hands he might have called with, for certain 2 of these have you worried and also possibly already well behind.

If i played the hand the same as you pre-flop, then i would not lead out with such a big bet. If i want to give him the chance to reraise and try take the pot, my bet needs to look a little weaker and typical of an AK AQ miss etc. i would bet in the region of 16-18k. If he reraises this is where i make my decision on what to do. Under no circumstances do i want this decision after the turn with the pot so big, especially if the turn is a scarey card.

You say you should have gone all-in, this would be a serious no-no for me. You will only get called by a hand that is beating you and you no longer have any control on the hand. If you will regularly make this move then (for me) you will rarely make any chips - mainly cos people with nothing will fold and people who have you beat will call. You may as well go all in preflop and hope JJ QQ or AK call.

I know there will be people who read this and say "but the limp huge re-raise" is so easy to spot and simple to play against and rather archaic. The beauty of the move is that if you are at a table with people who possess any grey matter, ANY move you make UTG is spotted and people are already suspicious. So do we think that raising UTG is less suspicious than a limp? not a chance for me, by limping you also give good value for people to come play the pot (this only encourages people with a hand to come out of the woodwork and try minimise the people who will see the flop.

Its a risk reward situation i guess, one thing i regularly notice is that people class KK as the second best hand in poker, it is actually the second best starting hand in poker, there is a big difference.

If noone raise and i play a 4 or 5 way pot, then this is the risk i take and i have to be good enough to lay it down, should the flop or action signal trouble.

Just a different look at the situation, there will be many times where ive played the hand the same as you and also many where ive done above. The dynamics of the table, the torny i'm in, the amount of runners left and the info i have are all factors that have to be quickly taken into consideration when im dealt this hand and i guess we all do at the time what we think is best.

[doubleup]

I have no problem with your post-flop raise, i am interested in what you would do if your opponent called or re-raised all in though. If he reraises all in, then i call instantly, if he just calls then the turn is going to be one scarey card for me. Your first to act on the turn if he calls your flop bet, what do you do? pot is now 80k.

..............Under no circumstances do i want this decision after the turn with the pot so big, especially if the turn is a scarey card.

You say you should have gone all-in, this would be a serious no-no for me. You will only get called by a hand that is beating you and you no longer have any control on the hand. If you will regularly make this move then (for me) you will rarely make any chips - mainly cos people with nothing will fold and people who have you beat will call. You may as well go all in preflop and hope JJ QQ or AK call.

This is exactly the problem - by betting 25k on the flop I create a big pot on a scary board with perhaps a scarier turn to come.  Not sure I only get called by hands I am beaten by if I go allin and even if I do a lot of these hands get me anyway e.g a flopped set. If JJ folds to the all-in then they would fold if I made the same bet with AK, so that adds weight to the allin argument.

[Lee]

Its a scenario whereby it is so dependent on the situation and the players in the pot that there isn't really a perfect way to play it, unless you are there. Even then there are no definites.

If i'm at a good standard table, with an UTG 2x raise, then i'm regularly walking into AA KK or AK. If i can pick this then i can play many 2 cards on the button, hands like 78 56 44 55 66 77 88 are great value here as its very hard for AA and KK to lay down on a board like that, especially when (to protect their hand) they will almost always lead out with a pot(ish) sized bet. By calling 12k, i am almost guaranteed to be making a decision on the flop for a pot in the region of 60k, possibly even more as the blinds now have value. I've rarely seen AA or KK not bet biggish here and i will also see AK either go all in or bet 2/3rd (ish) pot. Without position UTG is almost forced to make sure he bets as with that board its a scarey one.

This is where i'm not a fan personally of a 25k bet into a 30k pot, i guess (for me) it's a no mans land bet. Its high enough that even if button goes all in, i'm almost compelled to call, i have 1/3rd of my stack at stake already and pyshologically it's very hard to lay down KK, whatever the action is telling you on a board like that. Think of all the crying calls you see with KK and AA, whereby everything the player is seeing tells them that they are beat, yet they just can't fold the 1st or 2nd best starting hand. So many players play KK AA like it cannot be beat, one of the first things we see in poker is the thrill of being dealt Aces and this never leaves our mind. What we do in time is learn that you cannot sit around waiting for hands like these and we start to see the value of playing a wider range and indeed we eventually see that its playing the wider range that is the key to becoming a winning player.

A 25k bet here is the same as 30k, after seeing an UTG raiser do this i am only calling if i have him beat, there are just too many signs telling me his holding. Whereas if i bet 16-18k then i can make him doubt that i had AA KK and possibly move his thinking more towards AK, with overpairs to the flop he will be raising, with a set or str draw he will be calling and by the turn card i have to be good enough to lay my hand down. His call here gives me alot of information as will his re-raise. A 16k bet here saves me 9k and IMO maximises my possible winning (by inducing play or some helpful signs off him) and minimises my losses if i'm beat.

Interesting debate anyway.