AmayaStars

[tikay]

and whilst you might not like online poker/poker professionals

For the record, that does not apply to me.

I'm just trying to put it all in context at a time when a lot of people seem to be over-reacting (imo).  

I do happen to think that the recreationals are more important, in many ways, though. That does not mean I "dislike" Pros, not at all. There are far more recreationals than Pros, by a very long chalk, & their voice deserves to be heard, too.

I am willing to bet that the vast majority of pure recreationals have never heard of 2+2.
 
This "price increase" is not a suprise, & it's been widely known that it was coming for a long time. All sites will be re-aligning their rake models in the light of the new Legislation, not just 'Stars. Are we going to hate them all?

most people on 2p2 are recreational poker players.

Quite possibly - but my statement remains 100% valid. Most recs have never heard of 2+2, or any other poker forum. You don't know these people, but there are zillions of them. They play a few SNGs or fiver MTT's each night, after Corrie & before Crossroads, & just enjoy themselves. But poker does not consume them, it's just a bit of fun, not an obsession.

They are a vital part of poker.

That does not mean I "dislike" Pros! Context, balance.

[DaveShoelace]

It's not like 'Stars will be the only ones to raise prices, all UK facing sites will ne re-aligning their charges, &/or adjusting their rake model, in the next few months. All of them.

I do think the "fun-player friendly" sites might weight the increases more towards the high limit players, & so cut some slack to the recreationals. But I'd be amazed if all sites don't follow suit in some shape or form, they'll just cut their cloth in different ways. It just happens that 'Stars announced first.

I suppose they are bound to get the most heat, as they are, far & away, the biggest.

I had to pause to take breath after I read this Post on 2+2, where, it seems, the guy think 'Stsars owe him the right to make a living. This Post made me gasp, on so many levels. Every paragraph contains a gem.


I am in the process of writing a long email to pokerstars with maths showing that it will now be mathmaticly impossible for anyone but SNEs to make a profit after rake back for the games im targeting at any stakes above $5 and that most of the SNES will now be turned into losing to the rake even after rake back for these games.

and that I am now gone from pokerstars. I am serious with this statement and currently preparing a spreadsheet and email to send to pokerstars regarding this and am happy to provide this information once i have completed preparing it to anyone that wants to challenge me on that point.

the behavior of poker stars now goes beyond all rational sense. when peoples behavior seems so irrational there is only two realistic logical conclusions that can be drawn.

1. they are totally incompetent. this is true the minority of the time note that.
2. there agenda is different to what you postulate and actually makes sense from there stand point.

thus i no longer believe that the pokerstars actually are trying to make profit but rather there new owners are trying to kill online poker this may sound absurd but seriously do not be surprised if Sheldon Alderson is involved somewhere.

Thanks for posting this is beautiful in its delusion.

Bet Amayas share price takes a hit when they get that spreadsheet

[tikay]

and whilst you might not like online poker/poker professionals

For the record, that does not apply to me.

I'm just trying to put it all in context at a time when a lot of people seem to be over-reacting (imo).  

I do happen to think that the recreationals are more important, in many ways, though. That does not mean I "dislike" Pros, not at all. There are far more recreationals than Pros, by a very long chalk, & their voice deserves to be heard, too.

I am willing to bet that the vast majority of pure recreationals have never heard of 2+2.
 
This "price increase" is not a suprise, & it's been widely known that it was coming for a long time. All sites will be re-aligning their rake models in the light of the new Legislation, not just 'Stars. Are we going to hate them all?

So does this mean we should expect to see Sky Poker jacking up the rake in the new year?

I never said "jacking up the rake", I said "re-aligning rake model".

And I never mentioned or referred to Sky Poker. As you well know.

For the record, I have no idea what their plans are in this respect, but I'd be surprised if they did not recognize market forces as to recreationals, as that has always been their angle. 

I'd be very surprised indeed - & so would you I suspect - if ALL sites did not do something with their rake models between now & early next year. They will want to earn increased Margin to pay the PoC thing, but they'll all go about it in different ways I'd imagine.

[AlunB]

and whilst you might not like online poker/poker professionals

For the record, that does not apply to me.

I'm just trying to put it all in context at a time when a lot of people seem to be over-reacting (imo).  

I do happen to think that the recreationals are more important, in many ways, though. That does not mean I "dislike" Pros, not at all. There are far more recreationals than Pros, by a very long chalk, & their voice deserves to be heard, too.

I am willing to bet that the vast majority of pure recreationals have never heard of 2+2.
 
This "price increase" is not a suprise, & it's been widely known that it was coming for a long time. All sites will be re-aligning their rake models in the light of the new Legislation, not just 'Stars. Are we going to hate them all?

So does this mean we should expect to see Sky Poker jacking up the rake in the new year?

I never said "jacking up the rake", I said "re-aligning rake model".

And I never mentioned or referred to Sky Poker. As you well know.

For the record, I have no idea what their plans are in this respect, but I'd be surprised if they did not recognize market forces as to recreationals, as that has always been their angle. 

I'd be very surprised indeed - & so would you I suspect - if ALL sites did not do something with their rake models between now & early next year. They will want to earn increased Margin to pay the PoC thing, but they'll all go about it in different ways I'd imagine.

Yeah I was part joking part hoping for a scoop

It will be interesting to see what the various companies do. You need to remember that for most of them the UK is only a part of their dot com business, so making sweeping changes that affect people in say Canada just to protect UK revenues may not be the smartest move.

[tikay]

and whilst you might not like online poker/poker professionals

For the record, that does not apply to me.

I'm just trying to put it all in context at a time when a lot of people seem to be over-reacting (imo).  

I do happen to think that the recreationals are more important, in many ways, though. That does not mean I "dislike" Pros, not at all. There are far more recreationals than Pros, by a very long chalk, & their voice deserves to be heard, too.

I am willing to bet that the vast majority of pure recreationals have never heard of 2+2.
 
This "price increase" is not a suprise, & it's been widely known that it was coming for a long time. All sites will be re-aligning their rake models in the light of the new Legislation, not just 'Stars. Are we going to hate them all?

So does this mean we should expect to see Sky Poker jacking up the rake in the new year?

I never said "jacking up the rake", I said "re-aligning rake model".

And I never mentioned or referred to Sky Poker. As you well know.

For the record, I have no idea what their plans are in this respect, but I'd be surprised if they did not recognize market forces as to recreationals, as that has always been their angle. 

I'd be very surprised indeed - & so would you I suspect - if ALL sites did not do something with their rake models between now & early next year. They will want to earn increased Margin to pay the PoC thing, but they'll all go about it in different ways I'd imagine.

Yeah I was part joking part hoping for a scoop

It will be interesting to see what the various companies do. You need to remember that for most of them the UK is only a part of their dot com business, so making sweeping changes that affect people in say Canada just to protect UK revenues may not be the smartest move.

Yup, it will be very interesting to see how it all pans out.

By the time pantomine season arrives, 'Stars won't be the only villain, I can guarantee, but they remind me of Ryanair right now - everyone claims to loathe them.

[AlunB]

and whilst you might not like online poker/poker professionals

For the record, that does not apply to me.

I'm just trying to put it all in context at a time when a lot of people seem to be over-reacting (imo).  

I do happen to think that the recreationals are more important, in many ways, though. That does not mean I "dislike" Pros, not at all. There are far more recreationals than Pros, by a very long chalk, & their voice deserves to be heard, too.

I am willing to bet that the vast majority of pure recreationals have never heard of 2+2.
 
This "price increase" is not a suprise, & it's been widely known that it was coming for a long time. All sites will be re-aligning their rake models in the light of the new Legislation, not just 'Stars. Are we going to hate them all?

So does this mean we should expect to see Sky Poker jacking up the rake in the new year?

I never said "jacking up the rake", I said "re-aligning rake model".

And I never mentioned or referred to Sky Poker. As you well know.

For the record, I have no idea what their plans are in this respect, but I'd be surprised if they did not recognize market forces as to recreationals, as that has always been their angle.  

I'd be very surprised indeed - & so would you I suspect - if ALL sites did not do something with their rake models between now & early next year. They will want to earn increased Margin to pay the PoC thing, but they'll all go about it in different ways I'd imagine.

Yeah I was part joking part hoping for a scoop

It will be interesting to see what the various companies do. You need to remember that for most of them the UK is only a part of their dot com business, so making sweeping changes that affect people in say Canada just to protect UK revenues may not be the smartest move.

Yup, it will be very interesting to see how it all pans out.

By the time pantomine season arrives, 'Stars won't be the only villain, I can guarantee, but they remind me of Ryanair right now - everyone claims to loathe them.

Ha! Nice analogy.

But that's a HUGE shift in thinking. I've never known an online gambling brand with so much goodwill towards it. Ever. Players LOVED Stars and most would have definitely said things like "I trust Stars to do the right thing" etc etc

edit: not saying people don't love stars now, but if this ill feeling becomes more widespread I mean or if they end up like Ryanair!

[relaedgc]

The thing is, the members of this forum sit at a very specific part of the spectrum - and whilst it is undoubtedly unfortunate for you, there's hundreds if not thousands more people per each unhappy customer who are sitting in their living room saying, "Spin and Go's are absolutely amazing!" without a care in the world about the rake/charges or how people playing hyper turbo heads up SNG's have it rough etc.

There's nothing surprising about it whatsoever, they've had the most exuberant rake/charges on the live circuit for some years and only a tiny minority bat an eyelid. Using that as a measure to judge whether recreational players will care now leads me to conclude the following.

 It will make no difference at all to their popularity or their business.

[AlunB]

The thing is, the members of this forum sit at a very specific part of the spectrum - and whilst it is undoubtedly unfortunate for you, there's hundreds if not thousands more people per each unhappy customer who are sitting in their living room saying, "Spin and Go's are absolutely amazing!" without a care in the world about the rake/charges or how people playing hyper turbo heads up SNG's have it rough etc.

There's nothing surprising about it whatsoever, they've had the most exuberant rake/charges on the live circuit for some years and only a tiny minority bat an eyelid. Using that as a measure to judge whether recreational players will care now leads me to conclude the following.

It will make no difference at all to their popularity or their business.

Well then they shouldn't have bothered doing it in the first place

[DMorgan]

Tikay would you agree that having fewer games running as the site takes a larger slice is 'good for the game'?

I don't disagree with you that these are great business decisions from the boardroom. It's kind of a freeroll too because I think even though there's a decent amount of hate being directed at stars over this, their 4.9 billion bought the name pokerstars and with that comes some of the accrued good will.

Should these changes drive out a lot of the regs that start games and cause a collapse in liquidity on stars, they could reverse the changes and get the game starters back the next day

Amaya may well be great at being a publicly traded company, but trying to justify these changes as being good for poker overall is a glaring case of cognitive dissonance imo.

[Whollyflush]

My gripe with this sort of sh*t is that i get spam mail daily from stars with Dnegs face on it. Did i receive an email about the currency exchange or rake hikes? did i balls. if it isn't illegal its highly immoral in my book. The walls are closing on a number of us.....meh.

[zorro805]

Here is a great read from a poker pro's perspective.  The poker community needs to come together and save poker!

http://fantasysportsicon.com/pokerstars-increase-rake-end-professional-poker-player/

[tikay]

Tikay would you agree that having fewer games running as the site takes a larger slice is 'good for the game'?

I don't disagree with you that these are great business decisions from the boardroom. It's kind of a freeroll too because I think even though there's a decent amount of hate being directed at stars over this, their 4.9 billion bought the name pokerstars and with that comes some of the accrued good will.

Should these changes drive out a lot of the regs that start games and cause a collapse in liquidity on stars, they could reverse the changes and get the game starters back the next day

Amaya may well be great at being a publicly traded company, but trying to justify these changes as being good for poker overall is a glaring case of cognitive dissonance imo.

Hi Dan,

I never said it would be good for the game if fewer games ran. I never said anything 'Stars have done recently is "good for the game".

I did say that Amaya purchased a mature company (in a declining market), so it should be pretty obvious they'd want to up prices. It is debatable if that is good for THEIR business, (if I were a Shareholder in Amaya, I would defo applaud their actions), but I never said it was "good for the game".

I was not aware that Amaya had claimed their changes were "good for the game". I don't agree they are. I doubt they are that bad for the game, either, as it happens. It won't change "the game" much overall, imo.

I am extremely confident that there will not be a "collapse in liquidity on 'Stars".

There'll be a lot of noise for a few weeks, some serious grumbling, but poker will continue, pretty much as is. There'll be winners & losers from the change, of course, but overall, not much will change really.

It's quite possible I've got it wrong, but I don't think so.

If it affects your livelihood, then yes, of course I'm genuinely sorry, but I'm not sure an Online Gaming site owes anyone a living. 


 

[tikay]

Here is a great read from a poker pro's perspective.  The poker community needs to come together and save poker!

http://fantasysportsicon.com/pokerstars-increase-rake-end-professional-poker-player/

"save poker"?

Can I suggest that, perhaps, that is a touch of an over-reaction?

And (in that article you linked to) is terminating the contract of "The Face of Full Tilt", who supposedly lost $17 milli in the last 2 years, really a disaster? Would you really expect the new Owners to be happy with that situation?

PS - welcome to blonde. I don't usually disagree with new Members on their first Post! But "save poker" seems a tad ott to me.

The price just went up. Poker players are ingenious at hunting out value. They'll find a way to cope. And the recreationals have never really worried too much about value - they just want to enjoy some recreational poker fun. Which is what I'm about to do right now, , as I do most nights, play 20 or 30 SNG's, chill with my mates, have a laugh & some oohs & aahs, & win or lose a few bob. Best fun ever, poker is a wonderful game if approached the right way.

 

[Marky147]

This looks a bit better than the letter you posted, Tikay

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=45091150&postcount=529

[DMorgan]

My gripe with this sort of sh*t is that i get spam mail daily from stars with Dnegs face on it. Did i receive an email about the currency exchange or rake hikes? did i balls. if it isn't illegal its highly immoral in my book. The walls are closing on a number of us.....meh.

Not really too bothered about this, tesco advertise every day on TV and they don't say when the price of bread goes up. The energy companies only announce price rises because OFGEM forces them to.

The issue is that there was room for Amaya to raise the rake and still make it viable for people to start games, but they chose to just rake the winner out of existence. The notion that it will all die down and be business as usual in a couple of weeks is just incorrect because the rake has been raised to a level at which it is impossible for anyone to win even with supernova elite rakeback.

I have a hard time seeing how raking the players that start games, fill the first 4 seats of a sit and go so that the recs can actually 'sit and go' rather than 'sit and wait for ages for a game to fill' like the regs do is good for recreational players.

I think we need to stop looking at these changes as being either 'rec friendly' or 'pro friendly'. Raising the rake and introducing big forex fees are bad for everyone that plays these games. It's only the pros complaining because we're the only players that are crunching the numbers. Everyone tooting Stars' horn seems to be forgetting that these changes hit the recs in the pocket too, they just don't know it.