AmayaStars

[The Camel]

Raking the rebuys and addons in MTTs is going to be a killer for me. This is also the first time I've heard of the rake being different for two players from different countries who are playing the same games.

Personally I feel like Stars are trying to grab as much from me as fast as they can, so I will be doing the same to them whenever I attend any of their events.

I'll never forgive them for not letting me have a second steak and kidney pie at UKIPT Edinburgh a couple of years ago.

[tikay]

its pretty cute that all these 2+2 boys think anyone is going to boycott pokerstars.

Amaya CEO takes over, looks at his customers, looks at his prices realises 60% of them don't give a crap what they pay and out of the 40% who do care 38.5% of them will grumble and just pay anyway.

So he put the prices up! And he'll put them up again I would happily wager.

Why would they not put prices up?

They have the best product, by a mile, the best liquidity, the biggest prize pools, & the most players.

Any great business in that spot, with what amounts to a near monopoly, is going to squeeze their customers.

Boycott 'Stars? No chance. The 2+2 Crew said they'd boycott The Venetian this summer, but it was rammed to the rafters all Series. 

There has been a lot of debate on this on the interwebs and, imo, a lot of people are sort of missing the point.

As a business decision this is absurdly easy to agree with. In the context of the wider online poker sector it's not even bad. And as you say I doubt in the short-term it will hurt them one bit.

But to potentially lose a large chunk of the goodwill and organic player advocacy you've spent 10+ years building up? That's surely a bit of a disaster.

I hear what you say, but I think the hoohah will all die down very quickly, & the vast majority of the players will continue to use 'Stars for their poker fix.

[tikay]

Raking the rebuys and addons in MTTs is going to be a killer for me. This is also the first time I've heard of the rake being different for two players from different countries who are playing the same games.

Personally I feel like Stars are trying to grab as much from me as fast as they can, so I will be doing the same to them whenever I attend any of their events.

I'll never forgive them for not letting me have a second steak and kidney pie at UKIPT Edinburgh a couple of years ago.

Disgraceful, & worthy of a thread on 2+2. That'll teach 'em.

[AlunB]

its pretty cute that all these 2+2 boys think anyone is going to boycott pokerstars.

Amaya CEO takes over, looks at his customers, looks at his prices realises 60% of them don't give a crap what they pay and out of the 40% who do care 38.5% of them will grumble and just pay anyway.

So he put the prices up! And he'll put them up again I would happily wager.

Why would they not put prices up?

They have the best product, by a mile, the best liquidity, the biggest prize pools, & the most players.

Any great business in that spot, with what amounts to a near monopoly, is going to squeeze their customers.

Boycott 'Stars? No chance. The 2+2 Crew said they'd boycott The Venetian this summer, but it was rammed to the rafters all Series. 

There has been a lot of debate on this on the interwebs and, imo, a lot of people are sort of missing the point.

As a business decision this is absurdly easy to agree with. In the context of the wider online poker sector it's not even bad. And as you say I doubt in the short-term it will hurt them one bit.

But to potentially lose a large chunk of the goodwill and organic player advocacy you've spent 10+ years building up? That's surely a bit of a disaster.

I hear what you say, but I think the hoohah will all die down very quickly, & the vast majority of the players will continue to use 'Stars for their poker fix.

It will and they will. But there is at least a chance now that Stars will be filed under "just another gaming company" in some players minds. That's definitely a problem. They were always mes que un poker site.

[SuuPRlim]

agree tikay, and agree alun.

Sammy G nailed it the other day, no chance for poker now "just gambling" forever...

[AlunB]

Raking the rebuys and addons in MTTs is going to be a killer for me. This is also the first time I've heard of the rake being different for two players from different countries who are playing the same games.

Personally I feel like Stars are trying to grab as much from me as fast as they can, so I will be doing the same to them whenever I attend any of their events.

I'll never forgive them for not letting me have a second steak and kidney pie at UKIPT Edinburgh a couple of years ago.

This is probably my favourite post of the year

[Rexas]

Can someone who understands this stuff better than me just clarify a few points for me please?

As primarily a cash player, I can't see any rake changes that are going to affect me. The only changes relating to cash games seem to be coming in at $25/$50. In fact, the only part of this update that I can see affecting me is the need to manually top up every time I drop below my initial buy in, which I'm sure a piece of software will be able to do for me in the near future.

As for the stuff about charges for withdrawing etc, is it not as simple as converting all funds to the currency you want to withdraw in before you do so to avoid these new charges?

Anyone?

[rfgqqabc]

Well hu play below probably 200nl is unbeatable now with the rake being doubled. So nice to see these sites punishing the regs and helping out the poker ecosystem like we need.


The currency charges won't affect you directly, they will however effect fish who don't realise these charges exist, as I doubt Stars will have a huge ad explaining the changes.

Give me somewhere to go and I will boycott stars. Give me a site that doesn't mysteriously cancel tournaments when they would overlay. Give me a site without numerous thriving bot rings. Give me a site that doesn't charge on deposits/withdrawals whilst using a currency none of its consumers can actually use.


Tikay if you think a site that is beginning to promote unbeatable games is good for poker then you should continue championing stars's current approach. It will be found wanting in 3-5 years when the long term effects of these changes take place. However, I do agree this is good for Amaya in theory at the moment. Just seems very short sighted to me. They are rapidly losing any credibility that poker is a skill game, and it will only continue down this path whilst people try to capitalise on a poker market they think exists but really does not. Stars's "poker ecosystem" is/was vastly different to the ridiculous iPoker 1/iPoker 2 accident. For some reason the powers to be in poker have taken one event, small skins from the network handing out huge rakeback deals and never advertising to a new thought process that winning players are bad for the game. If you want low winrates you want regfilled games and not depositing fish. Stars are absolutely killing the golden goose in the form of hyper turbos. Yes you might pay 55% of what you take back to the supernova elites, but they provide thousands and thousands of games of liquidity. These guys are grinding out 2% after rakeback and the fucking idiots in suits think that is too much? They must be crazy. The million/warmup have 5 regs registering 6man sats virtually every waking hour of every day. Once these 5 go we suddenly need 6 recreational players to all fancy punting a mil sat instead of one. They are absolutely off their rocker getting rid of SNE in 2016. They will continue putting prices up and having people hail them as business geniuses until it all collapses.  There is no possible way they can gain the volume of the SNE players with recreational players. The market is getting smaller and not bigger.

Stars have just gone from having a player base that loves them to a player base that hates them, and this will pass onto the recreational players too. I have never promoted an online site that wasn't pokerstars whenever someone asked me at the table about online poker. Why would I? No one had anything to offer, no one currently does. Party Poker has tried to do a similar thing over the last two years, has failed miserably and is continuing to wither and die. It is very hard to continue to make money when a significant proportion of your playerbase hates you. Pokerstars are getting that way, and the hate will only spread as 2+2ers are grassroots poker. People actually think its a bunch of online players, when the majority are people who just like poker. Over 98% of registered users are amateur players, possibly even higher. Blonde poker definitely has a pro to amateur posting ratio that is off the charts compared to 2+2.

Tikay highlights a post from some guy who appears to be an absolute crackpot. I don't really see the relevance. There are 700 posts in one thread regarding this on 2+2, it doesn't really surprise me that a few are absolute bollocks. I'm sure some people read my posts and think its just more of the same shite. You can admire amayas business practices, but don't try and say it is good for poker. Poker as a game is beautiful, and whilst you might not like online poker/poker professionals, understanding that a healthy online poker scene is incredibly good for the long term nature of the game as a whole. I feel more and more like a raving lunatic on blonde at the moment, and its not particularly fun for me, although I enjoy writing these posts to some degree. It seems like these changes are being well received on here, despite being absolutely horrible for everyone. People seem to be enjoying seeing pros get fucked over, and I can't really work out why. The general sentiment seems to be that the corporation is finally sticking it to these nasty professional players with their all powering software when the reality is many pros would rather not deal with any software or bullshit at all and just play fucking poker. Seating scripts are good for fish, it means they play hands with more players in, and lose money slower and stay at the tables for longer. Why do you think Stars haven't gotten rid of them? Yeah they look horrible, but they help out the sites preventing headsup action.

I just want to wake up, load up my laptop, make hundreds of complex decisions for thousands of dollars and go to bed. Why is it so hard?

11 new posts, probably should start being a touch more concise.

[AlunB]

Well hu play below probably 200nl is unbeatable now with the rake being doubled. So nice to see these sites punishing the regs and helping out the poker ecosystem like we need.


The currency charges won't affect you directly, they will however effect fish who don't realise these charges exist, as I doubt Stars will have a huge ad explaining the changes.

Give me somewhere to go and I will boycott stars. Give me a site that doesn't mysteriously cancel tournaments when they would overlay. Give me a site without numerous thriving bot rings. Give me a site that doesn't charge on deposits/withdrawals whilst using a currency none of its consumers can actually use.


Tikay if you think a site that is beginning to promote unbeatable games is good for poker then you should continue championing stars's current approach. It will be found wanting in 3-5 years when the long term effects of these changes take place. However, I do agree this is good for Amaya in theory at the moment. Just seems very short sighted to me. They are rapidly losing any credibility that poker is a skill game, and it will only continue down this path whilst people try to capitalise on a poker market they think exists but really does not. Stars's "poker ecosystem" is/was vastly different to the ridiculous iPoker 1/iPoker 2 accident. For some reason the powers to be in poker have taken one event, small skins from the network handing out huge rakeback deals and never advertising to a new thought process that winning players are bad for the game. If you want low winrates you want regfilled games and not depositing fish. Stars are absolutely killing the golden goose in the form of hyper turbos. Yes you might pay 55% of what you take back to the supernova elites, but they provide thousands and thousands of games of liquidity. These guys are grinding out 2% after rakeback and the fucking idiots in suits think that is too much? They must be crazy. The million/warmup have 5 regs registering 6man sats virtually every waking hour of every day. Once these 5 go we suddenly need 6 recreational players to all fancy punting a mil sat instead of one. They are absolutely off their rocker getting rid of SNE in 2016. They will continue putting prices up and having people hail them as business geniuses until it all collapses.  There is no possible way they can gain the volume of the SNE players with recreational players. The market is getting smaller and not bigger.

Stars have just gone from having a player base that loves them to a player base that hates them, and this will pass onto the recreational players too. I have never promoted an online site that wasn't pokerstars whenever someone asked me at the table about online poker. Why would I? No one had anything to offer, no one currently does. Party Poker has tried to do a similar thing over the last two years, has failed miserably and is continuing to wither and die. It is very hard to continue to make money when a significant proportion of your playerbase hates you. Pokerstars are getting that way, and the hate will only spread as 2+2ers are grassroots poker. People actually think its a bunch of online players, when the majority are people who just like poker. Over 98% of registered users are amateur players, possibly even higher. Blonde poker definitely has a pro to amateur posting ratio that is off the charts compared to 2+2.

Tikay highlights a post from some guy who appears to be an absolute crackpot. I don't really see the relevance. There are 700 posts in one thread regarding this on 2+2, it doesn't really surprise me that a few are absolute bollocks. I'm sure some people read my posts and think its just more of the same shite. You can admire amayas business practices, but don't try and say it is good for poker. Poker as a game is beautiful, and whilst you might not like online poker/poker professionals, understanding that a healthy online poker scene is incredibly good for the long term nature of the game as a whole. I feel more and more like a raving lunatic on blonde at the moment, and its not particularly fun for me, although I enjoy writing these posts to some degree. It seems like these changes are being well received on here, despite being absolutely horrible for everyone. People seem to be enjoying seeing pros get fucked over, and I can't really work out why. The general sentiment seems to be that the corporation is finally sticking it to these nasty professional players with their all powering software when the reality is many pros would rather not deal with any software or bullshit at all and just play fucking poker. Seating scripts are good for fish, it means they play hands with more players in, and lose money slower and stay at the tables for longer. Why do you think Stars haven't gotten rid of them? Yeah they look horrible, but they help out the sites preventing headsup action.

I just want to wake up, load up my laptop, make hundreds of complex decisions for thousands of dollars and go to bed. Why is it so hard?

11 new posts, probably should start being a touch more concise.

I don't fully agree with this, but this is the point I was making

[tikay]

and whilst you might not like online poker/poker professionals

For the record, that does not apply to me.

I'm just trying to put it all in context at a time when a lot of people seem to be over-reacting (imo).  

I do happen to think that the recreationals are more important, in many ways, though. That does not mean I "dislike" Pros, not at all. There are far more recreationals than Pros, by a very long chalk, & their voice deserves to be heard, too.

I am willing to bet that the vast majority of pure recreationals have never heard of 2+2.
 
This "price increase" is not a suprise, & it's been widely known that it was coming for a long time. All sites will be re-aligning their rake models in the light of the new Legislation, not just 'Stars. Are we going to hate them all?

[MC]

Excellent post Adam.

[rfgqqabc]

and whilst you might not like online poker/poker professionals

For the record, that does not apply to me.

I'm just trying to put it all in context at a time when a lot of people seem to be over-reacting (imo).  

I do happen to think that the recreationals are more important, in many ways, though. That does not mean I "dislike" Pros, not at all. There are far more recreationals than Pros, by a very long chalk, & their voice deserves to be heard, too.

I am willing to bet that the vast majority of pure recreationals have never heard of 2+2.
 
This "price increase" is not a suprise, & it's been widely known that it was coming for a long time. All sites will be re-aligning their rake models in the light of the new Legislation, not just 'Stars. Are we going to hate them all?

Yes. I am a consumer. I hate it when the price of milk/cigarettes go up, and would continue to do so even if I owned a corner shop.

[pleno1]

and whilst you might not like online poker/poker professionals

For the record, that does not apply to me.

I'm just trying to put it all in context at a time when a lot of people seem to be over-reacting (imo).  

I do happen to think that the recreationals are more important, in many ways, though. That does not mean I "dislike" Pros, not at all. There are far more recreationals than Pros, by a very long chalk, & their voice deserves to be heard, too.

I am willing to bet that the vast majority of pure recreationals have never heard of 2+2.
 
This "price increase" is not a suprise, & it's been widely known that it was coming for a long time. All sites will be re-aligning their rake models in the light of the new Legislation, not just 'Stars. Are we going to hate them all?

most people on 2p2 are recreational poker players.

[tikay]

and whilst you might not like online poker/poker professionals

For the record, that does not apply to me.

I'm just trying to put it all in context at a time when a lot of people seem to be over-reacting (imo).  

I do happen to think that the recreationals are more important, in many ways, though. That does not mean I "dislike" Pros, not at all. There are far more recreationals than Pros, by a very long chalk, & their voice deserves to be heard, too.

I am willing to bet that the vast majority of pure recreationals have never heard of 2+2.
 
This "price increase" is not a suprise, & it's been widely known that it was coming for a long time. All sites will be re-aligning their rake models in the light of the new Legislation, not just 'Stars. Are we going to hate them all?

Yes. I am a consumer. I hate it when the price of milk/cigarettes go up, and would continue to do so even if I owned a corner shop.

It's a circle though - if you were a farmer (as well as being a consumer), you'd want the right to get the highest price you could for your milk, surely? Your customers ain't gonna like price hikes, but they ain't gonna quit buying milk.

[AlunB]

and whilst you might not like online poker/poker professionals

For the record, that does not apply to me.

I'm just trying to put it all in context at a time when a lot of people seem to be over-reacting (imo).  

I do happen to think that the recreationals are more important, in many ways, though. That does not mean I "dislike" Pros, not at all. There are far more recreationals than Pros, by a very long chalk, & their voice deserves to be heard, too.

I am willing to bet that the vast majority of pure recreationals have never heard of 2+2.
 
This "price increase" is not a suprise, & it's been widely known that it was coming for a long time. All sites will be re-aligning their rake models in the light of the new Legislation, not just 'Stars. Are we going to hate them all?

So does this mean we should expect to see Sky Poker jacking up the rake in the new year?

Also I'm fairly sure this rake change is not directly linked to impending new taxes on UK players. Didn't they previously announce there will be changes to player rewards due to this next year?